I may and there's a recording in progress and I may repeat some of this introductory material as folks join in. But there's a lot of material I want to cover today. And I hope to have a discussion period somewhere in the middle as well as at the end. But if you have questions or comments, you can put it in the chat. for Bo to come back to when we have discussion periods. So this is a seminar on Dogen's Shobo Genzo essay, Muchu Setsumu, expressing the dream within her dream. But I'm also going to be interweaving a bunch of material about Kamakura Buddhist views of dreams and dreaming, literal dreams, as well as just East Asian Buddhists. approaches to dreams and just through some examples. That's a whole graduate course in itself.

[01:02]

But so I'll be starting with the text and then a little background on dreaming. And yeah, it's interesting material and I've got a lot of it. So we'll see how it goes in terms of the timing. So this essay, Muchu Setsumu, is considered part of Dogen's Shobogenzo. It was written in 1242, which was the year before Dogen left Kyoto along with most of his students and settled up north in Echizan, which is now called Fukui, where Heiji is, where he built his headquarters temple, Heiji. And So, Muchu Setsumo, I translated with Kaz Tanahashi as expressing the dream within a dream. Hi, Tatiana, we're just getting started.

[02:03]

So, yeah, so Setsu, Muchu Setsumo, Muchu means within a dream. Setsumo is expressing a dream is how we translated it. Other people translated it as speaking of dreams. It could be translated as speaking of dreams or even talking of dreams. So again, I translated this with Kaz Tanahashi a long time ago. I have consulted the new translation from Soto Shu of the whole Shogul Genzo done by Carl Bielfeld, De Fitzpolk, and Will Bodiford, who I worked with on the liturgy part of the Soto Shu translation project. And so their notes are useful. They say talking of dreams. But we translated Setsu as expressing because Dogen emphasizes the expression of Zazen, the expression of practice, not just realizing or understanding reality, but actually then expressing it.

[03:18]

in our everyday activities is something that Dogen clearly, and I would say Mahayana Zen also emphasizes. So that's why I like the translation, expressing the dream within a dream. So I will be talking about, I'll be interweaving material from the Shobo Genzo essay with the background of the East Asian view of dreams and dreaming, regular dreams. So, and again, I have lots of material to cover and hope to have discussion sometime in the middle as well as at the end. We'll see. So just as a starting point about dreams, when Dogen was in China in 1223 to 1227, when he was a young man going around to different Chan teachers in China. He had a dream that he received transmission from Dame, one of the great classical Tang masters, a disciple of Mazu, a great plum.

[04:31]

So there's a colorful story about him. Also, when he got to his teacher, his ultimate teacher, Ru Jing, Hendo Nyojo in Japanese, Chantung Ru Jing, who he received transmission from, He got to Chiantong Temple. And it happened to be that the night before, Ru Jing had a dream. And he had a dream in which Dongshan Liangjie, Tozan, the founder of Chan in the 800s, the founder of the Saodong or Soto lineage of Chan in the 800s, appeared to Ru Jing in this dream and told him that there was going to be a foreigner arriving. And so the next day, Dogen showed up. Anyway, we don't know how reliable these stories about dreams are, but it gives us, as I'll be saying, a context for seeing how dreams were viewed in that period.

[05:34]

Okay, so yeah, so I'm going to talk a lot more about the Kamakura period context of dreams and East Asian context of dreams. But I will start now with the highlights from the text of expressing the dream within a dream. And we are being recorded. Good. Okay. So I'm just going to go to the text of this essay and just read some highlights that talk about where Dogen explicitly talks about dreams. And so I'm just going to read just the highlights of this. Welcome, Judith. We're just getting started. I'm talking about Dogen's.

[06:35]

I'm going to give some excerpts now from Dogen's Shobogen's essay. within a dream, expressing the dream. And one of the things to say about this is that in traditional Buddhism, the idea of awakening or liberation is awakening from dreams. But that's not where Dogen's at at all. That there's a continuum of consciousness from Anuttara Samyak Sambodhi, complete awakening to So I'm going to say a lot more about that. But the point isn't to awaken from dreams for Dogen. It's to awaken within the phenomenal world, the world of dreaming, the world that we think of as a dream. So this the world of dreams is not separate from the awakening of ultimate universal reality.

[07:36]

OK, so here's a bunch of excerpts from Dogen. The text itself of Dogen Shobo Genso essay just to emphasize this. In the realm of Buddha ancestors, there was the active power of Buddhas going beyond Buddha. So this is this is a part of a phrase that Dogen uses a lot, much more than Shikantaza or those kind of phrases that have been emphasized in Americans. He says. I'll read that whole passage. Since this realm is not a matter of the passage of time, their lives are neither long nor short, neither quick nor slow. This cannot be judged in ordinary manner. Thus the dream, the Dharma wheel, excuse me, has been set to turn since before the first sign of forms emerging. And that's a phrase that Dogen uses a number of times. The great merit needs no reward and becomes the

[08:37]

guidepost of all ages within a dream this is the dream you express because awakening is seen within awakening the dream is expressed within the dream so the point is to not to awaken from dreams but within dreams to awaken and what he means by dreams will continue so dogen goes on right after that the place where the dream is expressed within a dream is the land and the assembly of buddha ancestors The Buddha lands and their assemblies, the ancestor way and their seats are awakening throughout awakening and expressing the dream within a dream. So I said before, this essay, Muchu Setsumu, Setsu means to express. It also means just to talk of or speak of. But Dogen emphasizes expressing, not just realizing awakening. And that includes within a dream. Again, more quotes to this effect. Every dewdrop manifested in every realm is a dream.

[09:40]

This dream is the glowing clarity of the hundred grasses. He says a little below that. Do not mistake. These a little more before that. What requires a questioning is this very point. What is confusing is this very point. At this time, there are dream grasses, grasses within. expressive grasses, and so on. That's kind of a standard way that Shogun's rhetoric works. When we study this, then roots, stems, branches, leaves, flowers, and fruits, as well as radiance and color, are all the great dream. Do not mistake them as merely dreaming. So this is not dreaming in the sense of non-reality or an illusion. This is where we awaken. This is the awakening of Buddhas within the dream. Continuing other expressions of this in this essay.

[10:47]

The expressing of the dream within a dream is all Buddhas. All Buddhas are wind and rain, water and fire. We respectfully maintain these names of Buddhas and also pay homage to those names of other Buddhas. To express the dream within a dream is the ancient Buddhist. So he says this again and again very strongly. So I'm just reading all the passages in this essay that indicate this. So thus the endless turning of Dharma traverses the entire land. In the all-embracing world, cause and effect are not ignored. So that's a reference to the podcast. to not ignore the phenomenal world. And so dreams is a representation of that. So there's some other parts of this that I'm going to come back to later.

[11:51]

Okay. There are inner dreams, dream expressions, expressions of dreaming, and dreams inside. Without being within a dream, there is no expression of dreams. Without expressing dreams, there is no being within a dream. Without expressing dreams, there are no Buddhas. I don't think you can say it more strongly than that. He says, going beyond the Dharma body, and I'll talk about that more later in another passage, the Dharma body of Vairachana, the reality of Buddha as the entire phenomenal world, Going beyond the Dharma body is itself expressing the dream within a dream. Here is the encounter of a Buddha with a Buddha. So there's a passage next that I'm going to come back to because there's a lot of a lot of material and references in this essay.

[12:55]

And it's it's kind of complicated. But anyway. And there's a whole thing about the head top placed above the head that I'll come back to. A thing of suchness expresses the dream within a dream. A person of suchness expresses the dream within a dream. So suchness is one of the things that Dongshan Shoshan, the founder of Chinese Zhaodong or Shoto, talks about a lot. The Jewel Marish Samadhi, some of us know, talks about. the teaching of suchness, the Dharma of suchness. But here, Dogen says, a thing of suchness expresses the dream within a dream. A person of suchness expresses the dream within a dream. A thing beyond suchness expresses the dream within a dream. A person beyond suchness expresses the dream within a dream. This understanding has been acknowledged as crystal clear. What is called...

[13:56]

Talking all day long about a dream within a dream is no other than the actual expression of the dream within a dream. So, again, here, Dogen is emphasizing the expression of dreams. So, again, I'm just going through this essay, this Shobo Genzo essay, Expressing the Dream Within a Dream, which is Setsumu. And talking about the going over the phrases in which Dogen expresses this directly. And I'm going to go back over the over other parts of this essay a little later. OK, making one brief utterance beyond understanding and beyond knowing is the expression of the dream within the dream. As the expression of the dream within a dream is the thousand hands and eyes of Valokiteshvara that function by many means, the power of seeing colors and sounds and hearing colors and sounds is fully maintained.

[15:10]

The manifestation body is the expression of the dream within a dream. So the manifestation body is like Shakyamuni or historical Buddhas. The manifestation body is the expression of the dream within a dream. The expression of dreams and of myriad aspects of Dharma are the expression of the dream within a dream. So again, all of these are examples of Dogen talking about how awakening is not awakening from dreams. It's awakening in this dream. And welcome, Jeremy. So we're talking about parts of... this essay, Expressing the Dream Within a Dream, where Dogen is explicitly talking about, well, he says the expression of the dream within a dream is all Buddhas and is the Buddha land. So he says this very strongly, that awakening is not about awakening from a dream.

[16:14]

Awakening is awakening within this phenomenal world. So there are other, there's a lot of material in this Shilpa Genso essay. And I'm going to come back and go over some of that. But I'm just giving some highlights of how Dogen talks about dreams and awakening and how awakening is within a dream. The next one, there is no liberation other than expression of the dream within a dream. So very clear. I mean, he says this very strongly again and again. There's no liberation. Other than expression of the dream within a dream. The dream is the entire great earth. The entire great earth is stable. Thus the inexhaustibility of turning the head. And pivoting the brain. Actualizing freedom. Is just your awakening of the dream within a dream. Identifying with and actualizing the dream within a dream.

[17:15]

So. Again this is. This basic point that. That awakening is not awakening from a dream. Awakening and liberation and enlightenment, if you will, happens in the phenomenal world. So I'm just reading a number of these essays. For anyone who came late, there's a recording so you won't hear the beginning of this too. This is an important one. Study this discourse. So this is after. I'll talk about this later, but he has a quote from the Lotus Sutra. And he says, study this discourse of the Buddha and thoroughly investigate this Buddha assembly of the Buddhas in the Lotus Sutra. This dream of Buddhas is not an analogy, he says. And as I said in the beginning, I'm working from the translation I did with Kaz Tanahashi a good while ago.

[18:19]

But also I've consulted the new translation from the Soto Shu translation project. And some of their notes are helpful. Some of their interpretations I don't agree with. But anyway, as the wondrous drama of the Buddhas is mastered only by... Well, okay, first, again, this dream of Buddhas is not an analogy. And the word that we translated as analogy also could be read as a metaphor or a parable. There are lots of parables in the Lotus Sutra. So the dream of Buddhists is not merely an analogy or a parable or a metaphor. He's talking about how these dreams are completely part of reality. As the wondrous Dharma of all Buddhists, Dogen continues, is mastered only by a Buddha together with a Buddha. All dharmas are awakened in the dream, all Dramas awakened in the dream are genuine forms.

[19:22]

In awakening, there are aspiration, practice, enlightenment, and nirvana, which is a phrase used a lot in the Lotus Sutra. Within the dream, there are aspiration, practice, enlightenment, and nirvana. Every awakening within a dream is the genuine form without regard to large or small, superior or inferior. So again, these are all in this essay. There are other things I'm going to come back to, but these are all these statements of the importance of expressing the dream within a dream. As I said in the beginning, Mutsu Setsumu has been translated as talking about dreams in a dream or speaking of dreams within a dream. But the Setsu can also mean expression and Dogen. in many of his writings is clearly emphasizing not just to realize awakening or understand enlightenment or however you want to translate that but that one has to express it in one's everyday activity so in this essay he's talking about expressing this dream within the dream so a couple more quotes along these lines

[20:47]

Right after that, soon after what I just read, Dogen says, awakening and dreaming are from the beginning one suchness, the genuine reality. Again, awakening and dreaming are from the beginning. One suchness, genuine reality. The Buddha Dharma, even if it were an analogy or a metaphor or parable, is the genuine reality. As it is not an analogy, there's a passage in the Lotus Sutra where it talks about the king, made king in the dream, and how practitioners dream of becoming kings of the Dharma. This is the genuine truth of the Buddha Dharma, Dovan says. Just a little bit later, he says, Shakyamuni Buddha and all Buddhas, and ancestors each arouse the mind, cultivate practice, and attain universal true awakening within a dream.

[21:54]

This being so, the Buddha's path of transforming the Saha world, the world of endurance that we live in, throughout his lifetime, is indeed created in a dream. So, Buddha's path of transforming our world, believing the suffering of our world throughout his lifetime was indeed created in a dream. OK, I'm going to. Well, yeah, he's also talking about this passage in the Bodhis Sutra that I'll come back to later, which relates to dreams. Hearing the Dharma is hearing sounds within the eye and within the mind it is hearing sounds in the old nest and before the empty kalpa as it is said all buddhas with bodies of golden hue splendidly adorned with a hundred auspicious marks that's from the lotus sutra now we can directly realize beyond any doubt that this fine dream is itself all buddhas with bodies

[23:14]

So this phenomenal world, this dream world, is where Buddhas appear. Although within awakening, Dogen continues, the Buddha's transformation never cease. So this is about Buddhas going beyond Buddhas. One does not become a Buddha and then that's it. That's not the end of practice. That's the beginning of practice and the beginning of awakening or continuing of awakening. So he says again, Although within awakening the Buddha's transformation never ceases, the Buddha ancestor's emergence is itself the creation of a dream within a dream. Be mindful of not slandering the Buddha Dharma. So this is my first go through of talking about what Dogen says about expressing the dream within a dream. So for people joining us late, welcome, Jordan.

[24:18]

There will be a recording of all this available. Basically, I've been reading quotes from this Shobogenso essay by Dogen in 1242. Muchu Setsunu expressing the dream within a dream. And he emphasizes again and again, as I've been reading, that dreams are exactly where awakening happens. Dreams are the realm of Buddhas. Dreams and the phenomenal world are not separate from the realm of awakening or the ultimate universal reality that Buddhas awakened in the dream. So I'm going to say a little bit now about the background of the view of dreams in Dogen's period of Kamakura. Tamakura period. But maybe first, there's something in the chat, Bo. Is that a relevant question?

[25:21]

I think David shared a copy of the text. Oh, OK. OK, good. So you now have the text available. Yeah. Thank you, David. In the chat. And again, I've been reading, quoting these many passages. in the text where Dogen talks about awakening, the dream realm is the realm of Buddhist, is the realm of awakening. It's not awakening from the phenomenon world or from dreams. Okay. So what I want to do now is just to start talking about the background for this essay, which is the view of dreams In Dogen's period, Kamakura period, which was from 1185 to 1230. Well, Dogen lived 1200 to 1253. I'll just, if there's one or two comments or questions on what I've said so far, I'll pause for that.

[26:30]

And Beau, maybe you can help me. If anyone has, you can just raise your hand or do the raise hand function with Zoom. if anybody has any brief question or comments so far. Dale does, and then Douglas. Okay, let's have those two. Dale? Yes, I'm wondering if expression might be the same as or similar to actualizing. Well, that's part of the point I'm trying to make. Yeah, actual, you know, okay, these English words are... I know, yeah. So the point, one point is that this is not realizing awakening or having some understanding of awakening. It's actually... It's actualizing.

[27:31]

Actualizing is another word. Expressing it, actualizing it, bringing it into everyday activity, bringing it into one's own everyday activity. That's the point. That's the point that... that Dogen is making, yes. The dreams are not merely dreamy, as he says. Of course, I'm thinking, you know, about actualizing the fundamental point. Yes, and actually, at some point in the essay, he uses the phrase Genjo Koan, and maybe I'll get to that when I go back over the text a little later. Well, thank you, Dale. Douglas? Well, for me, in reading this fascicle, it's been helpful to think about Vasubandhu and the three natures of the imaginary nature, the dependent nature, and the consummate nature of the perfected nature, where the imaginary nature is the phenomenal reality that we perceive. And then, but with the projection ideas of separateness and independence and fixed nature that's there,

[28:38]

And Vasubando over and over again uses metaphors to describe our ordinary experience, that imaginary nature, including that it's a dream, or it's a dream, or a mirage, or sky flowers, and magical illusions, and so on. And I think that Doga, and later on Vasubando talks about the... consummate nature, the perfected nature that the Buddhas realize is the same reality, but they're aware of the dreamlike nature of the world and the illusion that they perceive. I think Dogen makes the point a lot more strongly. Yes. Even the dream, even the delusion is a manifestation. It is real. It is a manifestation of what is real. And so I think that thinking about Vasubandhu and the imaginary nature is kind of helpful.

[29:44]

Okay, but I want to say that Dogen is in some ways undercutting that whole history of Mahayana Buddhism that understands Maybe that's not what Vasubhanda was saying, but there's this idea in Mahayana Buddhism of awakening is awakening from the dream world, from the phenomenal world into some new heightened realm. And Dogen is saying, and I think this is inherent in Mahayana Buddhism, Nirvana and Samsara are not separate, that actually for Dogen, and he does this in many of his essays, he's cutting through the preconceptions of early Mahayana Buddhism. So he's saying so strongly here that the Buddhas exist in the dreams, in the dream world. The Buddha's assembly is the dream world. So it's not just that understanding that it's all part of awakening.

[30:50]

It's seeing this exactly within. It's... So, yeah, this is part of what Dogen does again and again and again. I'm going to be doing it. I'll mention at the end, I'm going to be doing another seminar in November on the painting of a rice cake, and it's got a similar sense. Dogen undercuts the traditional, even traditional Mahayana Buddhist common idea. Again, whether Vasubandhu understands it this way or not, I don't know, but that actually awakening is the dream world. It's not separate at all. So this is a very radical essay. So anyway, I'll say more about all that. But I want to start now talking about how dreams are viewed in Dogen's time, in Kamakura Buddhism. So I'm just going to do a little bit of this now.

[31:52]

And in East Asian Buddhism, Generally, so one thing is that. Bodhisattvas traditionally in Mahayana Buddhism in East Asia, I think this applies to Tibet as well. But anyway, Bodhisattvas appear to people in dreams regularly. There's a long tradition of this. I'm just going to give a few examples and I'll get say more about this later. But dreaming, I mean, dreaming in the sense of sleeping and having a dream while you're asleep. is regularly the access point for bodhisattvas to appear in the world. So I'm going to give a few examples of this. So these are from the folklore of East Asian Buddhism. So the stories about the bodhisattvas, there's a story about a military commander and they give his name and Sun Jingde, he was in the Northern Wei Dynasty, which is, I think, in the 600s.

[32:58]

And, oh, yeah, that was the 400, well, that was from the 386 to 535, so somewhere in there. This general was captured by the enemies, and he was a devotee of Guan Yin, of Alokiteshwara, Kanzayon, in Japanese. He was captured by an invading enemy and sentenced to be executed. The night before his scheduled execution, a Buddhist monk appeared in a dream and taught him to recite a sutra to Guan Yin. This is the sutra that some of us know as the Enmei Juku Kanongyo. So this is a regular sutra. We recite in American Soto Zen as well as Japanese Soto Zen. Anyway, he was in a dream. A monk came to San Jingde, this general who was about to be executed, and taught him this chant.

[34:06]

And this general recited it a hundred times, the story goes. The next morning, the executioner broke his sword three times. when striking his general's neck. So his captors were amazed and decided he was not supposed to be executed and they let him go. When he returned home, he found that the Guan Yin image on his home altar had three sword marks on its neck. So this is a great story. And, you know, whether it's literally true or not, and a lot of this is true, I would say, of a lot of these stories, this kind of story gives a sense of how dreams were viewed in East Asian Buddhism. Here's another one, a little bit longer, and I really like this one. This is from Dogen's time in Japan, the 13th century.

[35:11]

And it's about a town called Tsukuma. in old province which had a medicinal hot springs this is modern nagano prefecture and the fact that they get details about about names and places may not may not mean that it's more historically true or not but again this is how these stories are how dreams were viewed so uh in this town uh some one of the people in the town had a dream in which a voice announced that Kanon, the Bodhisattva of Compassion, would come to the town square the next day. In the dream, the dreamer asked how he would know it was Kanon. And the voice described a scruffy, 30-ish warrior on horseback. So after this townsman awoke from his dream, he told his friends, and soon everyone in this small village was excited,

[36:15]

And they gathered at the appointed time. And then at that time, a scruffy samurai, putting the description, arrived on horseback. And all the people started prostrating themselves to the samurai because they thought it was Kanon. The warrior was surprised and demanded an explanation. The townspeople just came, just continued to make prostrations to him. A priest finally told him about the dream. The samurai explained that he had fallen off his horse and injured himself, and he simply had come to this town for the medicinal hot springs to heal himself. But the townspeople just continued prostrating themselves to him. So the story goes that after a while, it finally occurred to the perplexed warrior that perhaps he actually was Kana. So people believe dreams and that he should become a monk.

[37:15]

He discarded his weapons and was ordained later becoming a disciple of a famous priest. And there's no record in history of this guy, but he became a monk because of this dream that the townspeople had. So this is an example of how dreams were viewed in Dogen's time. And stories about dreams. So, you know, maybe this is literally true. I don't know. Historically true. But at any rate, this shows what how dreams were seen in Do against time. There's another story that goes further back to China. There's a guy, a monk named Gunabhadra. He lived from 394 to 468. He arrived in China around 435 and he went to China to try and spread the Dharma. So he was an Indian monk, but he couldn't speak any Chinese.

[38:18]

And he was really upset that he could not express the Dharma to these Chinese people. But the story goes, he had a dream in which Let me find the reference exactly, because it's a really interesting story. So he dreamed that a man came with a single stroke of his sword, cut off Gunabhadra's head and replaced it with another. When he awoke after the stream, suddenly he could express himself perfectly in Chinese. That's the story. Gunabhadra was an historical guy who actually in some early Chan or Zen lineages and teachings in China, he was considered, he was previous to Bodhidharma and he was included in the Chan lineage in early China as preceding Bodhidharma.

[39:30]

Anyway, so He was able to express himself perfectly in Chinese because of this dream in which he got a new head. He translated the Lankavatara Sutra into Chinese. He was also a scholar of Prajnaparamita and Hua Yen. So, again, these are examples of how dreams were viewed. in East Asian Buddhism and in Dogen's time. So, you know, there are psychologists here who can talk about, you know, modern understandings of dreams and so forth. There are many, many other examples in East Asian and Kamakura Priya folklore about the power of dreams and the liberative power of dreams. But I want to mention two figures, and I'll say more about them at the end.

[40:34]

I'm going to go back to the Shobo Genzo essay first, and then I'm going to end today with an example of a dream that Dogen himself had that he records in Eheko Roku, Dogen's Extensored Record. But I want to just mention now, and then I'll come back and say more about them, two important figures. and Dogen's time relatively. Myoway lived 1173 to 1232, so he was a little older than Dogen. I'm not sure if they ever met. Excuse me. But Myoway's a very important figure. I think one of the most fascinating figures in Kamakura period Buddhism. He was both a Vajrayana and Huayen monk in both the Vajrayana and Huayen school in Japan. Those are Shingon and Kagon in Japanese.

[41:35]

Myo is famous for many things, actually. He's a very colorful figure, but he kept a 35 or 40-year dream diary. Modern Jungian analysts are very interested in him because he's maybe the first person who really kept a a reflective diary of dreams over a long period. And again, I'll say more about him later because he's very interesting, very important. But this was a genre of writing in Kamakura period. You men know ki, records of dreams. But Yo-e is the kind of great example of this. Again, an earlier, older, contemporary of Dogen. There's also Kezan, who I'll also come back to, who is the second founder of Soto Zen in Japan. He's three generations after Dogen in the lineage, 1264 to 1325.

[42:41]

And Kezan had a very strong relationship with dreams. He did practices to cultivate dreams. So there are many spiritual traditions which work with dreams in various ways and try to cultivate dreams. But Kezan was one of these. He had strong dreams. One of his dreams foretold the site of his major monastery, the Koji. So he referred to his own dreams to... site to place temples the new temples he was building also to ordain particular practitioners as monks so anyway um there's a book about kezon and his dreams that the book by the way that i was referring to about the folklore of dreams is from my book about bodhisattvas phases of compassion about classic 40s of archetypes there's another book i'll mention now um

[43:53]

Visions of Power by Bernard Farr, who's a well-known modern Buddhist scholar imagining medieval Japanese Buddhism. So I just want to quote something that Bernard Farr says when he's talking about Kezon. He says, for Buddhists, there is no clear distinction between dreams that come during sleep and visions achieved in a waking state or more precisely during meditation. in a samadhi state, these are often defined as being neither sleeping nor waking. And so these, let me read another quote from this book. You can find it. Yeah, so Bernard Ford again says, Mahayana doctrine has it that rather, well, okay, that dreams are perceived as the highest expression of reality.

[45:12]

So we think of it as non-reality often, or traditional Mahayana thinks of it as awakening from delusions. But dreams are perceived as the highest expression of reality in this period. Far from being one who, and he quotes Balzac, dreams and does not think, stirs and does not create. Kezon, the second founder of Soto Zen, is one of those for whom to dream is both to think and to create. Thus, dreaming his life is not better than living it. because it is precisely living it and one lives it fully only as one dreams it. Dreams do not make up a, quote, parallel and illusory reality since they tend to blend with the waking state. They make up this life, the only true one. So, again, we think of dreams as a kind of illusion.

[46:18]

and part of what we should awaken from. But what Thor is pointing to is that in East Asian Buddhism, and certainly for Dogen, consciousness is a continuum. There's total liberation. There's Anuttara Samyaksam Bodhi, Unsurpassed Complete Awakening. And there's also dreams, and they're a continuum. They're not separate. They're not different things. There's this... There's this realm of consciousness which includes dreams, very much so. So, this is different from how we see dreams. So, I want to go back to the text and review it, and review some of the other aspects of Luchu Setsuo, Dogen's expression of the dream within the dream. But maybe I'll pause again and see if there's any comments or questions about this, the way that East Asian Buddhists generally and people in Dogen's time, and Soto Zen people in Dogen's time, saw it dreaming.

[47:38]

Comments, questions? I'll just take a couple if anyone has something. and you can put it in the chat or else you can just raise your hand. Yes, David Ray. Thank you, Tigin. So at a certain point, I found myself thinking about practice and practice instructions in connection with dreaming, being, just lived reality. So is it ever made explicit, the thought that dreams are like the stream of consciousness that becomes, that is evident in practice? All the stuff that this mind might be thinking right now, but is not aware of because it's busy talking to you? Well, you know, when Poir talks about

[48:42]

dreams not being considered separate from visions in samadhi. So, you know, when we're sitting, maybe it's most clear in sashins or longer periods of sitting, but anyway, in the middle of sitting zasen, we have, you know, visions or thoughts or, you know, I remember from when I lived at Tassahara that I had in the middle of long sittings, awarenesses that were very much like dreams and that had that kind of what we think of as a dream kind of connections. So it's not that it's a continuum, but also all of it is awakening. All of it is in the realm of awakening. As Dogen says very, very explicitly, very frequently in this essay. so uh it's not so he that they don't think of dreams that what we have as when we're sleeping at night as separate from visions that appear in samadhi and and you know there's um i think of the the platform sutra of the sixth ancestor one of my favorite parts of that is the chapter on jhana and samadhi that right in the middle of uh

[50:09]

nutjana in samadhi, prajna, or insight in samadhi, that right in the middle of samadhi, right in the middle of sitting, and some of you may have experienced this, and maybe all of you have experienced this, not necessarily realizing it, but in the middle of intense sitting, insights arise. This is what the sixth ancestor says. So, In some sense, one of the things that Dogen's essay and this whole discussion of dreams as the place where Buddha's awakened, one of the implications of this is that, quote-unquote, imagination is also reality. And that imagination is part of practice. So when we have some vision or some insight, You know, it's happened to me that I went in the middle of a dream or in the middle of sitting, I'll have some insight about something that's been on my mind.

[51:21]

Or when I'm in the middle of a writing project, sometimes whole passages, whole sentences or paragraphs appear at any rate. So, again, the point is that dreams are not separate from awakening. that expressing the dream within the dream, as Dogen says, is the realm of Buddhist and awakening. I don't know if that responds to your question. Joe has his hand up. It strikes me that Dogen and the others were eight centuries freshened in assigning dreams a concrete utility that didn't arise in Western science or Western thought until Drs. Freud and Drs. Jung. So they're very much ahead of their time, or Freud was smart enough to delve back and learn from Dogen and the others.

[52:33]

Yeah, that's an interesting comment. I'm not a psychologist. I've not learned it in Western psychology, but my sense is that Jungians particularly focus on dreams, and Jung thought of dreams as not separate from reality, apparently. I don't think either Freud or Jung had access to old Buddhist teachings, particularly. Maybe Jung had some sense of it. I mean, that's a whole other interesting topic. But, you know, Henry David Thoreau translated part of the Lotus Sutra, whatever it's worth. So, you know, he was a student of non-Western religions. Yes. Yes. Yes. Jung particularly. Yes. So, yeah, he may have encountered something of this kind of tradition. I wouldn't say they're exactly the same, but there's this relationship.

[53:39]

And as I said, there are many, many, many spiritual traditions. There's a whole science of dream practice in Tibetan Buddhism. If any of you remember, what's his name? The Yaki Way of Knowledge, Don Juan, and those writings, they talk about conscious dreaming. talk a lot about dreams. So this is not unique to East Asian Buddhism or Tamakura Buddhism at all, but the way Dogen talks about it kind of undercuts our sense of dreams as secondary to awakening. It's just all part of the same awakening. So it's pretty radical still, I think. And you know, we can think about it in terms of our own experience of things that appear to us in Zazen or so forth.

[54:49]

So anyway, thank you, Joe. Is there one more comment or response before I go on to the next part? I have a quick thing, Tegan. Yes, Bo. I mean, just to, I love that story of, and, you know, I hope I get this right, but like of the folks kind of dreaming for the samurai to become Avalokiteshwara. And it just seems to me, I'm just thinking about it now, like that sort of is the opposite of what we do a little bit. Like, I don't know that so many of us in our culture would like accept that, you know, especially like completely unknown community of people, saying like we think you should be this we tend to think of like the vision we have for ourselves usually is like sacrosanct you know like that we protect sort of what we feel like you know what we hope to do with ourselves so i just think that's so radical to like um accept and not to say he did it without struggle but like to accept like that this group of people is saying this is your path now and and go you know and

[56:04]

Yes, and, right? And I'll go ahead and go do that, right? So, I don't know. That's really kind of inspiring to me, actually. It's really an interesting story. And it was just this one guy who had this dream that said that Kanon was going to come at a certain time into their town. And he told people, and they believed his dream. They thought, oh, Kanon appeared in a dream, so it must be. And they gathered, and then this guy showed up. And they somehow their intense belief inspired him to think, oh, well, maybe I am kind of. So and he became a monk. It's a really interesting story. Again, I don't these these folklore stories, you know, we can't verify them historically. But what it tells us is how people back then. Saw and thought about dreams, it's it's. It's a really interesting story, yeah, that he was willing to believe all these people who thought that this one guy's dream meant that he was a khanzeon.

[57:13]

And he acted on it. He put down his sword and shield and became a monk. It's, you know, what is it that leads someone to take on practice in an intense way? And so this was somebody else's dream. So anyway, it's a very interesting story, I think. So thank you, Bob. Thank you. So what I want to do next. And how are we doing on time? Yeah, we have more time than I was afraid we would have. So maybe I'm going to go review this Shoba Gento text and talk about some of the particular other things that are in this essay by Dogen called Muju Setsumo, expressing the dream within a dream. He throws in all kinds of stuff that's really interesting. So I went through and read many of the many places where he talks about how expressing the dream within a dream is all Buddhas, as he says.

[58:20]

And every dewdrop manifested in every realm is a dream. So, you know, valorizing dreams. And I know there's some psychologists here, and you may have some things to say about all this, but this is separate from modern psychology. Again, the place where the dream is expressed within a dream is the land and the assembly of the Buddha ancestors. So again, as I said at the very beginning, some may have missed it, that Mugshu Setsumu can be translated as in a dream, speaking of dreams, or talking about dreams. But Setsu means expounding or expressing also. And Dogen, very much throughout his teaching, emphasizes not just having some realization or understanding of awakening, but actually then sharing it, expressing it, expounding it to others. Like the story of Gunabhadra refers to him wanting to, this Indian monk wanting to share,

[59:27]

the teaching with people in China. So. OK, I'm going to go back over this essay and bring in some of the other aspects of it that are really interesting, I think. And then maybe after I do this, we will take a little break and then I want to say more about. About dreaming and then we'll have time for more. Question and answer and discussion at the end of it. So. Well, OK, I mentioned this. I read this one before. Well, OK, I'm going to go a few places. The Dharma wheel. So I'm quoting from. My translation would cost on Hashi. The Dharma wheel is just like this. Turning the great drama wheel. World is immeasurable and boundless. It turns even within a single particle, ebbing and flowing, ceaselessly within the particle.

[60:33]

Accordingly, whenever such a Dharma is turned, even a teaching, whenever such a teaching is turned, even an antagonist nods and smiles. Wherever such a Dharma is turned, it freely emulates, freely circulates like the flowing trees. between him talking about dreams specifically, but I just wanted to focus on this because this is an example of Dogen citing Huayen or a Flower Ornament Sutra, the Chamsaka Sutra teaching, that the Dharma wheel turns even within a single particle, ebbing and flowing ceaselessly within the particle. So in Huayen Buddhism, this is the branch of East Asian Buddhism that derived from the Avatamsaka or Flower Unimant Sutra called Huayen in Chinese, Kagon in Japanese. There's this idea of every single particle expressing Buddha.

[61:41]

So Dogon is just referring to this in the middle of this essay here. But I think it's related to how he sees dreams as part of the reality of awakening. so within the flower ornament sutra and with ym within ym buddhism it said that the every single particle includes buddhas and bodhisattvas buddhas and an assembly listening to the buddha within every grass tip at the tip of every plate of grass within every atom there are buddhas and bodhisattvas this is the context of Huayen Buddhism and Dogen refers to it here. And so I think it helps to have a context in which he sees dreams as not separate from awakening. So Flower Ornament Sutra or Huayen Buddhism is very much part of it. He doesn't refer to it as explicitly as he does to the Lotus Sutra, but it's very much part of the background for Dogen and for Soto Zen.

[62:46]

Right after that, thus the endless turning of Dharma Traverses the entire land. In the all-embracing world. Cause and effect are not ignored. And all Buddhas are unsurpassable. Know that being present in all situations. The guiding way of all Buddhas. In the amassing of. You know actually. This is the part. Where I thought maybe we would screen share. So if you can do that. I want to. For these passages. This is. Starts with the. Let's see if we can find this. Scroll down slowly. So. The passage. OK, pause. You can give me a phrase and maybe I can just search for it real quick. And it's right after the expression of all. It's the next paragraph after that one that you have at the bottom there.

[63:48]

The Dharma wheel is just like this turning great Dharma wheel world. That's the thing that I just read. So that everybody can see this because I'm getting into the literal language. And then the part that I'm talking about now is the next paragraph. Thus the endless turning. Everybody see that? Thus the endless turning of the Dharma traverses the entire land and the all embracing world cause and effect. are not ignored and all Buddhas are unsurpassable. I'll just read through the paragraph. Know that being present in all situations, the guiding way of all Buddhas in the amassing of expressions of Dharma is boundlessly transforming. Do not search the limits of Dharma in the past and future. So in a way, he's saying that all that these dreams are boundlessly transforming. But there's a reference here to the famous fox koan.

[64:50]

So at the beginning of that paragraph, thus the endless turning of Dharma traverses the entire land. In the all-embracing world, cause and effect are not ignored, and all Buddhas are unsurpassable. So some of you know the fox koan in which a teacher is turned into a fox for 300 or 500 lifetimes. And he comes to Baijong, a great Buddhist teacher from the Tang, as an old man who's actually a fox. And he says that, this is a famous koan, that he had once said in response to a question, are people who have awakened people or people who have studied the Dharma extensively free from cause and effect? And Baishang says they're not separate from cause. They do not ignore cause and effect.

[65:53]

So he's talking about this in the middle of talking about dreams as the realm of Buddhas. And cause and effect are not ignored. So dreams and samadhi visions, for that matter, are not ignored and cause and effect sort of come up together. So this is a whole important part of Zen teaching. And this has to do with not ignoring the phenomenal world. Not ignoring dreams. Not being blind to the results of the consequences of dreams. In the context in which he's referring to it. The next paragraph he says, all things... Leave and all things arrive right here. This being so, one plants twining vines gets entangled in twining vines. This is a famous essay in Shobo Genzo by Dogen about twining vines, tangled vines, vines entangling in others.

[67:02]

This references the complications and the intricacy of our experience, all of our experience. So, you know, we might see twining vines as dreams, but they're entangled with our reality and our awakening and our expression of that. So, just reading ahead, this being so, one plants twining vines and gets entangled in twining vines. This is the characteristics characteristic of unsurpassable enlightenment. Just as enlightenment is limitless, sentient beings are limitless and unsurpassable. So in a sense, he's saying that dreams are sentient beings. Just as cages and snares are limitless, emancipation from them is limitless. The actualization of the fundamental truth point or truth is...

[68:07]

I grant you 30 blows, referring to an old koan. This actualization of the fundamental point is a translation of genjo koan. So Dogen is referring to genjo koan. And then he says, this is the actualization of expressing the dream within a dream. So somebody brought up, I think maybe David Ray brought up the word actualization. So the dream within a dream is the actualization of the fundamental point. So, again, Dogen does this in all of Shobo Genzo, in all of his essays. He brings up references to old Zen koans, old Zen sayings. So the complexity of a dream within a dream is this intertwining, intertangling of all these different teachings. But they all come up within a dream within a dream. And then there's a passage that's A tree with no roots, the ground where no light or shade falls, and a valley where no shouts echo are no other than the actualized expressions of the dream within a dream.

[69:23]

This is a reference to an old story that Dogen refers to in his Ehikoroku, or extensive record, about it's pointing to something that's ultimate, a tree with no roots. The ground where no light or shade falls, something that is ultimate and beyond our usual way of thinking. A valley where no shouts echo. And there's a story about a group of young women who end up going to a charnel house to experience the realm of this that's in a hikoroku expression, the extensive record. Here, Dogen is saying that unsurpassable awakening is unsurpassable awakening, so the dream is called a dream. So, again, Dogen does this regularly, where he brings up various... Reading Dogen is a kind of art where the more you read Dogen, and this is true of koans in general,

[70:38]

The more you read them, the more they echo other teachings and other other phrases. And one of the things in the new translation of which is such a translation project is they have extensive footnotes that tell you where all these things appear other places. Anyway. So. OK. So I wanted to mention those. Further on, if you could scroll down. Well, I already said this, but I'm going to read from this paragraph. There are inner dreams, dream expressions, expressions of dreams and dreams inside. Without being within a dream, there is no expression of dreams. Without expressing dreams, there is no being within a dream. Without expressing dreams, there are no Buddhas. he can't say it any more strongly than that without being within a dream buddhas do not emerge and turn the wondrous dharma wheel the drama wheel is no other than a buddha together with a buddha and a dream expressed within a dream so this buddha together with a buddha is from chapter two of the lotus sutra and dogan has a whole essay about a buddha together with a buddha and that buddhas together

[72:04]

according to the Lotus Sutra, can understand the depths of this teaching. So this is a kind of communal practice. We practice together with each other's dreams and with each other's expressions and with all these different expressions from the tradition. I want to talk about the following paragraph, but I'm going to read through this paragraph because it's context. Without being within a dream, Buddhists do not emerge in turn. They want this jharma wheel. This jharma wheel is no other than the Buddha together with the Buddha, as I just said, and the dream expressed within a dream. Simply expressing the dream within a dream is itself the Buddhas and ancestors. So this expression of the dream within the dream. That's. buddhas and ancestors the assembly of unsurpassable awakening furthermore going beyond the dharma bodies itself expressing the dream within a dream so i'm going to talk about the dharma body a little further on because it refers to that dharma body being the dharmakaya or vaira chana is the personification of the dharmakaya which is all of reality as awakened in awakening um

[73:28]

Then I want to talk about something in this next paragraph where he talks another example of Dogen undercutting traditional Zen expressions. So I'll read through this next paragraph. It starts, here is the encounter. Here is the encounter of a Buddha with a Buddha. Again, this refers to this saying in the Lotus Sutra. No attachments are needed to the head, eyes, marrow, and brain, or body, flesh, hands, and feet. Without attachment, one who buys gold sells gold. And the Sotoshi Translation Project gives a context for that. There's another older saying that sellers of gold must meet a buyer of gold. You can't sell gold unless there's somebody to buy it. So in this context, it's referring to And someone who shares the Dharma cannot do that without people interested in hearing the Dharma, buying the Dharma.

[74:45]

So in this essay, one who buys gold sells gold. There's buying gold and selling gold. And selling gold requires one who buys gold and vice versa. And then Dogen says, this is called the mystery of mysteries, the wonder of wonders, the awakening of awakenings. And then he refers to a head top above the head. And this is a very common Zen image, the head top above the head. Usually, this refers to something extra, superfluous. So in many, many Zen contexts, they talk about putting a head on top of a head as something extra. And studying some text without realizing that it's already there in your head. So to put a head above the head is, you know, something superfluous, something extra.

[75:48]

And it's referred to in many Zen expressions. Here, Dogen says, the head top above the head. This is the daily activity of Buddha ancestors. When you study the head top, you may think that the head only means a human skull without understanding that it is the crown of Bhairachana Buddha. So I said I would talk about Bhairachana. But part of what's going on here is that Dogen, again, like you're talking about Buddhas and the Buddha assemblies existing within a dream, is saying that, yes, put a heads up above the head. He's totally undercutting, turning over a usual Mahayana Buddhist perspective. That.

[76:51]

Sometimes it's said in koans and other places, don't put a head top above the head. Don't put another head on top of your head. But Dogen is saying that this is exactly the activity of Buddha ancestors. And then he says, without understanding that it is the crown of the head top or crown of Vairoshana, Buddha, How can you realize it as the tips of all the bright, clear hundred grasses, another reference to Laman Pang? Who knows that this is the head itself, the head top above the head? I'll come back to Vairachana, but just to read the next part. Since ancient times, the phrase the head top placed above the head has been spoken. Hearing this phrase, foolish people think that it... Cautions against adding something extra.

[77:56]

Dogen says. Usually they refer to something. That should not occur. When they say. How can you add a head. On top of your head. Actually isn't this a mistake. Dogen says. So. Yeah. So this is in the text. That's on the screen. So. Again, this is Dogen turning over, refuting a basic Mahayana or Buddhist or Zen theme. Don't place a head on top of your head. And Dogen is saying, yes, you should do that. You should place your head above the head of Vairachana. Okay, Vairachana Buddha is the Dharmakaya Buddha. So in Zen, usually the main figure on the Zen altar is Shakyamuni Buddha.

[79:01]

So there are different kinds of Buddhas. There's the historical Buddha Shakyamuni and other historical Buddhas. So various people, historical people are sometimes referred to as Buddhas. But then there's Vairachana Buddha, who's the Dharmakaya Buddha. And that's Buddha as the reality, the awakened reality of the whole phenomenal world. So there are images of Vairacana Buddha. And actually, we refer to Vairacana Buddha in our Soto Zen chants, in our meal chants. And Vairacana is the Buddha whose body is the whole universe. So there are images of Vairacana in East Asia. great Buddha in Nara at Todaiji, for example, in Japan is, I don't know how, it's huge. And that hugeness of this beautiful Buddha image is an expression of Vairachana as the whole universe.

[80:02]

I remember his ears are eight feet long, just to give you an idea. It's huge. There are other images of Vairachana where you can see stars and moons and planets on his chest. And so, It's the Buddha as everything, as the whole phenomenal world. So anyway, Dogen refers to Vairachana Buddha. Vairachana Buddha, by the way, is the Buddha of Vajrayana Buddhism, or Shingon in Japanese. And it's the Buddha of Abhatamsaka, Flower Ornamental Huayen Buddhism. So I'm going to come back to this... Kamakura period monk Nyohei who was a monk in both of those schools in the Hajriano or Shingon school and in the Hwayen or Kagon school in Japan so I hope I'm not going too fast I'm sharing a lot of information but anyway Dogen is talking about placing a head above the head as

[81:11]

joining your head to the head top of Vairachana Buddha of the Buddha that is the phenomenal world and that's relevant in terms of expressing the dream within the dream because Vairachana is the Buddha of the whole phenomenal world including the phenomena of dreams and the content of dreams so it's all part of awakening it's all part of the Buddha realm So there's more here that gets very intricate. So the next paragraph. And we'll have after this, we'll have a period of questions and then maybe take a break. But. Yeah, the paragraph that begins the expression. So before just before that, he says, usually this refers to something that should not occur when they say. How can you add a head on top of a head?

[82:13]

But actually, isn't this a mistake? And then Dogen says, the expression of the dream within a dream can be aroused by both ordinary people and sages. Dream within a dream is something that is expressed both by ordinary people and by awakened people. Moreover, the expression of the dream within a dream by both ordinary people and sages arose yesterday and developed today, develops today. Know that yesterday's expression of the dream within a dream was the recognition of this expression as expressing the dream within a dream. This is typical of Dogen's complex rhetoric. The present expression of the dream within a dream is to experience right now this expression as expressing the dream within a dream. Indeed, this is the marvelous, joy of meeting a Buddha.

[83:16]

So, again, he's going further into this reality of the dream within a dream and expressing the dream within a dream. It's not even enough to see the dream as within a dream, but how do we express it in our life? This next paragraph continues this theme. We should regret that although the dream of the Buddha ancestors' bright hundred grass tops is apparent, clearer than a hundred thousand suns and moons, the ignorant do not see it. This phrase, the bright hundred grass tops, is from a saying from Raymond Tang, a great lay practitioner of the 800s who was a student of both Mazu and Shito, Sekito, who talks about the bright hundred grass tips as the realm of Buddha.

[84:21]

The head that is the head placed above the head, Dogen continues, is exactly the head tops of a hundred grasses, thousands of types of heads, the 10,000 kinds of heads, the heads throughout the body, the heads of the entire world unconcealed, the heads of the entire world of the ten directions, the heads of teacher and student that join in a single phrase, the head top of a 100-foot pole. So that's another reference to an old saying about jumping forward from the top of a 100-foot pole. Placing and above, and placing the head top above the head are both heads. Study and investigate this. So I want to pause there because that's a lot. And in the next section, he talks about something from the Lotus Sutra. But this is getting further into this text about expressing the dream within a dream.

[85:26]

And yes, placing a head atop the head top of Vajrajana Buddha. So. I want to read a little more of this and then we'll take a break. But I think maybe at this point, well, there's still a lot more that I want to open up. But then I want to go back and talk about how dreams are understood. But if there's a comment or two right now, you can put it in the chat or you can raise your hand. Excuse me. OK, I'm going to keep going since I don't see any raised hands. And there's a lot more I want to cover.

[86:30]

So continuing from there. The passage, all Buddhas and their unsurpassed complete awakening all emerged from this sutra. And it's referring to the Diamond Sutra is exactly expressing a dream within a dream. Which has always been. the head placed on top of the head. So expressing the dream within a dream, Jogan spends a lot of time saying how this is the same as the head placed above the head. And yeah, the head placed above the head is not something extra. And expressing the dream within a dream is exactly the Buddha ancestors. He says this sutra, while expressing the dream within a dream, brings forth Buddhas with their unsurpassed awakening. These Buddhas with their awakening in turn speak this sutra, which is The established expression of the dream within a dream. So. And I'll just the next sentence as the cause of a dream is not obscured. The effect of the dream is not ignored.

[87:33]

So this is again going back to. And not ignoring the phenomenal world. Not ignoring causes and conditions. So dreams are causes and conditions of this reality of Buddha's Buddha's expressing Buddha. Jump ahead. He talks about this understanding has been acknowledged as crystal clear. Let me go back before that. This is something I read at the beginning. Suchness expresses the dream within a dream. A person of suchness expresses the dream within a dream. A thing beyond suchness expresses the dream within a dream. A person beyond suchness expresses the dream within a dream. This understanding has been acknowledged as crystal clear. What is called talking all day about a dream within a dream is no other than the actual expression of the dream within a dream. And then, okay, wait a second.

[88:38]

I thought this was the part where it goes into the Lotus Sutra, but that's further down. Okay. Let me just continue. Shakyamuni Buddha. So just downward, the paragraph beginning study and clarify these words. Shakyamuni Buddha holding up the flower and blinking is exactly the expression of the dream within a dream. That's the famous story of Shakyamuni holding up a flower and Mahakashapa smiling. And he's considered the first ancestor in Zen. Making one brief utterance beyond understanding and beyond knowing is the expression of the dream within a dream. As the expression of the dream within a dream is the thousand hands and eyes of Apalakiteshvara. That function, that functions by many means. So this is a reference to another traditional story that's important in Soto Zen.

[89:41]

Yuen Yan, the teacher of Dong Shan, is asked by his brother, monk Dao Wu, what is the, how does Valakiteshvara Kanon, the Bodhisattva Compassion, function with his 10,000 hands and eyes, which is one of the standard images of Valakiteshvara. And so here he's saying this is the dream within the dream too. OK, there's a next the next section is is we could get we could spend the whole seminar on this, but the paragraph beginning when you take hold, if you can scroll up a little. And I'm just going to refer to this. I'm not going to go into it in detail, but it's very interesting when you take hold. Or when you let go, you need to study the common balance scale. And I'll just say that in 2017, Mukaku Michael Zimmerman, who, along with his wife, is one of the two teachers of the Two Arrows Zen group in Utah, gave a talk at Ancient Dragon about this.

[90:59]

You can find it. It's in July 2017. And he's using this image of the balancing scale that Dogen talks about in this essay. to talk about the idea of justice in Mahayana Buddhism. So I think it's very important to our modern sense of engaged practice. And there's a whole lot to say about this, but I'll just read through it and say some of it. As soon as you understand the measuring of our bounces and pounds, which causes translation of the Chinese translation, measurements will become clear and will express the dream within a dream without knowing these details, these ounces and pounds, without reaching a level balance. There's no actualization or expression of the balance point. When you attain balanced equilibrium, and Mugaku reads that as equality, taken from a translation of this essay by Heejin Kim, who's a wonderful Dogen scholar,

[92:06]

When you attain balanced equality, you will see the balancing point. Achieving balance does not depend on the object being weighed on the balancing scale, on the activity of weighing, but just hangs on emptiness. So this is a complicated image, but I couldn't not mention this today. Just hanging on its own in emptiness, the expression of the dream within a dream allows objects to float freely in emptiness. Within emptiness, stable balance is manifested. Stable balance is the great way of the balancing scale. And Mugaku talked about this as a metaphor or a way of talking about justice. Mugaku was also, as well as being a Zen teacher now, was the chief justice of Utah Supreme Court and was a lawyer. So we have a few lawyers here, I think, in this group. And again, you can go back. the Ancient Dragons and Gate podcast.

[93:08]

And if you enter Mugaku, Michael Zimmerman, we'll go to this talk from July 2017. Very, very interesting. Dogen talks about this here. While suspending emptiness and suspending objects, whether as emptiness or as forms, expressing the dream within a dream joins settled balancing. So, And then he says right after that, there's no liberation other than expressing the dream within the dream. So I'm just going to talk about this briefly because it's it's a very interesting complex teaching. But this is what each and Kim and Michael Zimmerman take as one of the references to justice in Mahayana Buddhism and in Dogen, the balancing scale. is we talked about the scales of Lady Justice and so forth and Suzuki Roshi talked about how we lose our balance against the background of perfect balance so anyway this is part of this essay I think it's time to take a break but I just want to

[94:33]

mention that there's a next section where there's a long quote from a verse from the Lotus Sutra. I'll just read the first part. All Buddhas within bodies of golden hue, splendidly adorned with a hundred auspicious marks, hear the Dharma and expound it for others, such is the fine dream that ever occurs. In the dream you are made king, then you forsake the palace and household entourage and go forth like Shaktamuni. So again, Dogen brings up this reference to dreams from the Lotus Sutra. So I have a lot more I want to talk about, about the context of dreams in East Asian Buddhism. But I think it's time that we should take a break. We're gone far beyond. So. I want to come back to Myohe and Kezon and Kamakura period, ideas about dreams, and then also quote a dream that Dogen shares of his own in the extensive record.

[95:50]

Let's take a break now. Thank you for sharing the screen. Let's take like an eight-minute break and And then come back and I'll take some comments then. But then I want to talk more about East Asian Buddhist views of dreaming. So thank you all very much for listening to all of this. Welcome back.

[104:21]

So. Almost eight minutes after I said eight minutes. And thank you all. I. There's more I want to say about. The role of dreams in Kamakura Buddhism and no way and Kazon and Dogen himself. But after all that stuff that I just gave up before the break. If there's a couple of comments, questions, responses, let's do that. So, Bo, if you see anybody. You can raise your hand physically, or you could go to the raise hand function, or you could put something in the chat. Is there anything in the chat, Bo, that is a comment? Alan has his hand raised. Alan, hi. Hi. Thank you, Tiger. I just wanted to ask a question, actually. On a section just before the bit about the Lotus Sutra quote, there's a section where it says, an ancient Buddha says, now I express the dream within a dream for you.

[105:34]

All Buddhas in the past, present and future express the dream within a dream. And I was just wondering, is that Dogen putting his sort of contention in this fascicle into the mouth of an archetypal ancient Buddha, or is he actually referring to a specific historical teacher from the past, so that he's sort of riffing on someone else's phrase like he does in Sokisin, Zibutsu, and essays like that? Thank you for the question. I'm looking for that in my text, but that's okay. It's a few paragraphs above the Lotus Sutra quote. Oh, I see. OK. Anyway, I did. I checked that with the Soto Shu translation project version of this essay, which has profuse notes and they couldn't find that quote. Now, that doesn't mean that Dogen made it up. It's just that it's not extent in the record.

[106:37]

So I believe that. That if he. Oh, yeah, I found it now. An ancient Buddhist said, I believe that there probably was some traditional teacher, but I'm not certain. And the translation project with all their resources of checking phrases and Chinese characters with all the whole literature, couldn't find it either. But. Yeah, the quote is, now I express the dream within a dream for you. All Buddhas in the past, present and future express the dream within a dream. The six early generations of Chinese ancestors. So the great Chinese six ancestor, back to Bodhidharma, express the dream within a dream. I don't think that's one of the places that I read before, but it's an example of this strong.

[107:44]

citation of that the dream within a dream is the place of the buddhas and what the buddhas ancestors say but yeah i i was wondering about that too thank you alan and um they couldn't find it in the record but that doesn't mean it's that dogen just made it up maybe he did but i i tend to think if he says that an ancient buddha said that he had some some somebody in where he someplace he found that Yeah. I suppose he's not necessarily – I mean, you could sort of take it that he's not making it up in that given he's saying everything is expressing a dream within a dream, then therefore all ancient Buddhas must be saying that as well. So I suppose you could take it that he's sort of putting the words into the mouth because that is the contention of the whole fascicle. But thank you. That's really helpful. Yeah. And I wondered about that too. Because usually when he says an ancient Buddha said, it does refer to something – Yeah, you can find the quote. Yeah, great. Thank you. But they couldn't find it. And if Carl and Griffin, Will couldn't find it, then I certainly can.

[108:49]

Anyway, thank you for the question, though, because that's the question I have. Other questions, comments, responses to the material that I went through before the intermission? Oh, yeah, David Ray, but just anyone who has a comment about the quality of dreams. I know some of you know about modern psychology and so forth. Yes, but David Ray first. Thank you, Teigen. My question is about the sentence that says, placing and above and placing the head top above the head are both heads. Study and investigate this. So before that, Dogen was talking about head tops of grasses and thousands of kinds of heads, but here he seems to be saying that the phrase placing the head top above the head amounts to saying head, [...] head. And so I'm wondering, should we think of that as chaos jazz?

[109:56]

Or is there a further, you know, is it or is it Or is there a further point there about heads in that sentence? I'm not sure, but Dogen is not above playing chaos jazz. So, but I think he's, you know, he's referring to, you know, this idea of the head top above the head is something extra is an analogy, if you will, with the dream within the dream. And so I, There are many, many examples in Dogen of his undercutting usual conventional ideas of awakening in Zen and in Mahayana. Again, I'm going to be talking about one next month, the painting of a rice cake. But there are many examples of that where he's turning, overturning conventional, even conventional Buddhist understandings. So I think that's the point. Any other questions, comments, responses, comments on dreaming as a context?

[111:05]

Okay, I'm going to then go further in terms of talking about dreams. And I'm going to return. I mentioned Myo'e and Kezon, so I'm going to return to them. Myo'e, again, 1173 to 1232. was a Japanese monk from the Abhatamsaka or Kagon school and the Vajrayana or Shingon school. He's really a fascinating figure. To me, he's the most fascinating Kamakura Buddhist figure, including my man Dogen. I visited his temple in North... in the mountains of northwestern Kyoto. There's a famous picture of him sitting up on a tree. He had a sitting platform up on a tree at his temple. There's just many stories about him. He was devoted to Shakyamuni as well as Vairachana.

[112:20]

Twice he planned to go to a pilgrimage to India. And in that period, in the 1200s, the sense of geography was a little distorted. It was much further than he thought. But it's a good thing that he didn't get to India because around that time is when Muslim invaders wiped out Buddhism in India for a while. Anyway, there's a whole no play about his trying to get to India. But in addition to all of that, Myohe had this 35-year dream journal, which a lot of it has been translated. So just to mention Myohe, there's a few good books on Myohe, but one of them is, I don't know if you can see this, George Tanabe's book, Myohe, the Dream Keeper, which has a section on, so if anyone's interested in looking up Myohe, you can look there for

[113:27]

it has a long section of the translation of Mioe's Dream Journal. So, anyway, Mioe, again, was contemporary with Dogen, and welcome, Abby. I will be sending out recordings of the whole, we're in the closing parts of this whole seminar, but I'll be sending out a recording of the whole thing for everyone here. So, Okay, so Myohe had this dream journal for 35 years, and many of his dreams, well, some of his dreams are probably, as I said before, they didn't see dreams back then as separate from visions during samadhi experiences and meditation. So some of Myohe's dream journal is the visions that he had in meditation, but most of it is actual dreams. And many of Myohe's dreams feature bodhisattvas.

[114:29]

As I was saying before, dreams was one of the established access points for accessing bodhisattvas. And so bodhisattvas appeared to people in dreams. Myo's journal is fascinating. There are bodhisattvas, there are arhats, there are Buddhist deities, there are Buddhist goddesses. Myo had a reputation in his lifetime as a very pure monk, but There are erotic dreams involving goddesses that appear to be Buddhist protectors. So this dream journal, again, is celebrated by modern Jungians as one of the first comprehensive dream journals. Again, there's so many things about Myohe that are fascinating. So I recommend that book. You know, for those who are interested, Mioe the Dream Keeper by George Tanabe.

[115:34]

And there's other material on Mioe. So, yeah. I think in modern times there are people who keep dream journals, but Mioe's is really exemplary. And it's not just that he writes down his dreams. He comments on them. He reflects on them. They're reflective. He reflects on the meaning of these dreams and these Buddhists and Bodhisattva figures who come to him and what they mean to him. So it's a really interesting context. So, again, I'm just going to go over a few things about dreams in that period, and then we'll have time for more discussion. But Kezon, again, three generations after Dogen in our lineage, is considered the second founder of Soto Zen. He founded what's now called Sojiji, which is one of the two headquarter temples of Japanese Soto Zen, along with Aheji, the Dogen founder.

[116:40]

And actually, Sojiji has many, many, many, many, many more related temples than Aheji. And in Japanese Soto, they consider Kezon as again, the second founder, almost equal with Dogen. They think of Dogen as the father and Kezon as the mother of Soto Zen. Kezon had many women disciples. And again, I mentioned this book before by Bernard Faur, F-A-U-R-E, who is a very well-known modern Buddhist academic scholar, Visions of Power, Imagining Imagining Medieval Japanese Buddhism, which has a lot of material on Keizan's dreaming. So, amongst other things, Keizan had dreams about places where, and one of the main temples he established called Rokoji, he saw first in a dream, and there was a tree.

[117:53]

that uh that was profuse and when he went when he went to the place where yakoji eventually happened he saw that tree and uh and then the dream many many many many amongst many students came to that place so um uh so kezon depended on these dreams both to locate the temples he founded and to see the people he ordained as monks. He had dreams about them that led him to do those ordinations. So he was very connected with his dreams. There was one dream where Kezon was initiated in some way by Bodhidharma, and then by Shakyamuni, and then by Maitreya, the same dream. So he used these dreams as a way of seeing things that he actually did.

[118:56]

So there's a kind of a recurring East Asian shamanic dream of entering the palace of Maitreya. And some of you are doing the, we're doing a flower ornament sutra reading once a month. The first Friday evening of the month, you're all welcome. And we're into the last section of the flower ornament, the Radhatan Saka Sutra, which ends with This palace of Maitreya is the story, the last chapter, log section of the Avatamsaka Sutra is a separate sutra called the Gandabyuha, or entering the realm of reality. And the culmination of that is the pilgrim Sudhana. Sudhana, after visiting 53 Bodhisattva teachers, in turn, gets to the palace of Maitreya, and it's... Pretty mind blowing, very psychedelic. It's an amazing text.

[119:56]

But that palace of Maitreya appeared to many East Asian Buddhists as a kind of in dreams. So it was a powerful image. One of Kezon's record mentions 20 particularly significant dreams he had. So he kept a kind of dream diary to it was not as extensive or as complete as Nyo is, but he recorded his dreams. He used dreams, Kezan used dreams for information on past lives, also on foretelling the future, and for information on teachings or Dharma. So he had dreams in which various teachers expounded aspects of the Dharma for him. So, again, he's the second founder of Soto Zen, and dreams were very important for them.

[120:57]

They were maybe less important in general for Dogen, although I mentioned in the beginning that his teacher, Tiantang Ruijing in China, in 1227, had a dream the night before Dogen arrived that Dongshan Yangjie Tozan, the founder of Soto Zen in China, appeared to Ru Jing and said there's a foreigner who's now coming and you should pay attention to him and the next day Dogen showed up so and in Dogen's life there were references to a number of dreams that were important but I want to quote at length and then we'll have just open discussion because there's a lot of material that We've talked about from this essay, which is Setsumo, Expressing the Dream Within a Dream, and then just this context of dreams in Kamakura period Buddhism and in East Asian Buddhism generally, that's very important.

[122:09]

And so, again, the main point in this essay, one main point in this essay is that it's important to express the dreams within a dream. which means expressing the teaching within the phenomenal world. So dreams are, you know, part of the phenomenal world. Okay, I'm going to just quote a long, somewhat long, dream that Dogen refers to in his Feihikoroku, or his extensive record that I translated with Shohakokomora. This is from 1243. The year when he departed Kyoto and went to what's now Fukui at the time where he founded a Heiji. So I'm going to quote from this long drama hall discourse about dreams. So and Dogen doesn't call this a dream.

[123:10]

But he says that last night. This mountain monk, in other words, Dogen himself, struck the empty sky with a single blow. So that preface of last night seems to indicate that this is something that happened in a dream. But at any rate, he doesn't call it a dream. So just to read what Dogen said. Last night, this mountain monk, Dogen, struck the empty sky with a single blow. My fist did not hurt, but the empty sky knew pain. This is kind of some macho kind of reference, I guess. But he punched out the empty sky. A number of sesame cakes appeared and rushed to become the faces and eyes of the great earth. So like a lot of things in Dogen, this is a reference to something... where sesame cakes appear, suddenly a person came to this mountain monk, in other words, Dogen, and said, I want to buy the sesame cakes.

[124:25]

And Dogen says to him, well, who are you? Again, this is all sensibly in a dream. The person replied to this mountain monk, I am Avalokiteshvara Bodhisattva. My family name is Zhang and my personal name is Li. So that's kind of like Smith and Jones for us. I mean, this is Avalokiteshvara, Kanzeon, the bodhisattva of compassion, appearing to Dogen, apparently in a dream, and he's saying, well, I'm just an ordinary person. So Dogen, this mountain monk, said to Avalokiteshvara, did you bring any money? And Kanon said, I came without any money. So Dogen says, I asked him, if you didn't bring money, can you buy these sesame cakes or not? And, well, it's just where it does not answer, but just said, I want to buy them. I really do. So that's the dream part of this, of this Dharma Hall discourse in, in, uh, uh, in, uh, Dogen's, uh, extensive record.

[125:38]

So Dogen that says, after quoting all that, speaking to his assembly, Do you totally, thoroughly understand the meaning of this? After a pause, which happens in many of these talks, Dogen said, when Avalokiteshvara Bodhisattva makes an appearance, mountains and rivers on the great earth are not dead ashes. In other words, when the Bodhisattva of compassion appears, the whole earth becomes alive. Not just a dream. You should always remember that in the third month, the partresses sing and the flowers open. So that's the that's this Dharma Hall discourse in Dogen 1243, which there's a few others like that in in Dogen's extensive record, which seem to be dreams. And which he recounts to his to his assembly of monks.

[126:44]

So, OK. We have time now here at the end for discussion. I really this whole sense of expressing the dream within the dream. You know, it has to do with. Dreaming is not separate from reality. It's not separate from awakening. All the consciousness is part of awakening. It's not lesser than some vision of ultimate reality or some actualization or realization of ultimate reality. But this expression, again, some translations say talking or speaking of dreams, but setsu also means expression or expounding. And as I said in the beginning, Dogen emphasizes in most of his writings, the importance of expression.

[127:45]

It's not enough to just realize awakening. One has to express it. One has to share it. So that's a whole, so the whole idea of the dream within a dream. And again, the example of the head above the head top or the head above the head as not an image of delusion, but as an image, as an expression of The Essence of Buddhadharma, which he talks about. He does this with many things. As I mentioned, I'm going to be doing a seminar similar to this Saturday, November 23rd, 1 to 3.30 p.m. It's also mentioned on the Ancient Dragon website. And that painting of a rice cake, that fascicle from Shobha Venzo, he talks about this old saying that a painting of a rice cake does not satisfy hunger, it's very much parallel to the dream, expressing the dream within the dream is awakening.

[128:54]

And the painting of a rice cake does not satisfy hunger is usually taken as, you know, just an image of reality or just an image of awakening. It's not awakening. But Dogen turns it upside down and we'll see when I talk about it next month that he ends up saying that only a painting of a rice cake satisfies hooker. So anyway, there's a lot in that essay too. But I want to just open this up now. Comments, responses, questions to anything we've talked about, to the whole idea of dreaming within a dream as the expression of awakening and so forth. So please feel free. I'm interested in your comments. And you can put something in the chat or you can raise your hand or, you know, use the Zoom raise hand function. Noshin?

[130:02]

Maybe other people have it. I saw Noshin. Mushin had her hand up and then... Anoshi and then Mushin. Thank you. Okay. And then, yeah, go ahead. Oh, there we go. I just want to apologize for coming in late. What time zone are you in? This is, I'm in Chicago area, so the center time zone. I thought that was part of what was... Yeah. There was a recording of the whole thing, and Maybe with Beau's help or David Ray's help, we'll send out the... There were other people who registered for this who could not attend in person, but all of you will get a copy of the recording of the whole thing. So you can ignore it, or if you came in late, you can listen to the whole thing. Thank you. But welcome, anyway. And then... Sorry, Beau?

[131:12]

Anoshi had a comment, I think. Or a question? Yeah, I just had commented at break in the chat that the emphasis of expressing the dream reminds me of the Nirmanakaya, the transformation body, too, and Indra's net. Does that say anything to you, Tagan sense? Oh, yeah. Yes, yes. Thank you, Anoshi. So, yeah. I was talking about Hawaiian Buddhism at some point in this and where he talks about. He talks about Bhairachana and he talks about the awakening on the top of every grass tip. And this is also part of the context of the importance of Hawaiian Buddhism in Soto Zen.

[132:13]

So could you just say your question again, Inoshi, please? Sure. I'm wondering about the Dogen's emphasis on the dream within a dream and Indra's net and also the Nirmanakaya, the transformation. There's like that because cause and effect, karma is transformational. So we're talking about. Yes. Yeah. So it's that. Yeah. So Indra's Net is an image from the Flower Ornament Sutra, from the other Tamsaka Hawaiian Sutra. And that's, maybe you all know, but if anyone doesn't, that's the sense that each particle, which applies to each dream, reflects everything else in the whole universe. So this sense of... the interconnectedness of everything, of all particulars, of all phenomena, as the realm of the universal.

[133:19]

So I was talking during the talk about Bhairachana, the Dharmakaya Buddha, which Dogen mentions in the essay. And the Dharmakaya is all of reality, the Dharma body, the reality body of Buddha. So all of the phenomenal world, not just this solar system, but all. the whole universe and all other universes, as awakened. That's the meaning of the Dharmakaya Buddha, the ultimate Buddha. But yes, Anoshi, the Nirmanakaya is the particulars. And one of the strong emphases in this essay by Dogen is that each particular event, which is to say each particular dream, all of our imaginings, is... an expression of the whole thing, and that's what the image of Indra's net is about, that each thing reflects everything else, and that each is a holographic image.

[134:20]

So, yeah, it's not just the Dharmakaya as opposed to the Nirmankaya. The Nirmankaya is, there's this teaching about three bodies of Buddha, the Dharmakaya, the ultimate. The Nirmankaya is that particular people or historical beings who are Buddhas, And then Sambhogakaya is the reward body, and that gets into more mystical Buddhas like Palakiteshvara and Samantabhadra and so forth. But yeah, part of what's going on in this essay is that everything is all about awakening and expressing awakening within awakening, within the dreams, within the realm of nirmanakaya. You know, this is about how our phenomenal world, with all of its troubles, is also an expression of the whole, an expression of reality, an expression of purity, even.

[135:27]

So I wanted to mention before this was over to encourage everyone to please vote. We have a really important election coming up. And that kind of... Taking our responsibility to vote when we have the opportunity or to express kindness within this world that often distorts kindness is expressing your dream within a dream. So I think that's what Dogen is talking about also. So yeah, please vote wherever you want. Now, excuse me, Alan is in the United Kingdom, so you can't vote in our election, but you probably are aware of it. So thank you, Inoshi. I think, yes, Tatiana, did you have a comment? I may be going out of order, Bo. I have written this in the chat as well, because I'm not sure that I will say it clearly. But I view that there are three options to, when you say talking of a dream within a dream, one can be, and you have already rejected option three, which would be,

[136:40]

to be awake and to talk about the dream B inside dream A. So that is not it. But then there is still... Well, excuse me, but, you know, that could be part of it. Everything's included. That's part of the point. Go ahead. Okay. And then there would also be a possibility that one is talking about dream B while sleeping inside dream A. And then finally one talk about... Dream A while one is dreaming dream A, which is how I feel things are actually happening. But I, you know, I wanted to hear more about your thinking about that. Yeah, well, I agree. And I think that's really interesting to try and parse how the dreaming within a dream and the expression of the dream within a dream and all the possibilities. All the possibilities are included.

[137:42]

It's not that there's some... Part of what's going on here is, Dogen is saying, not to cut off certain elements of reality or phenomena as not being awakening. So all of them are possible. That's my response to what you're saying, and I appreciate you're trying to analyze it. Does that work? Yeah. So, Bo, why don't you call on people? Because I see Chris's hand is up, but there might be other things before him in the chat or whatever. He's next. OK, Chris. So I guess part of it, it's kind of for Dogen, expressing a dream within the dream is all fine and well, as long as it's not done during Zazen. Expressing the dream within a dream is Zazen. Is Zazen. So then why does the master hit the monk when he's asleep?

[138:46]

Because maybe he knew that he wasn't really, that he was just being dreamy and not expressing the dream. I don't know. So that's the, I guess that's it. That's the dreamy versus dream. which are not the same. Yeah, Dogen says in this essay, this is not merely dreamy. So there's empowering the dream. Expressing the dream is also to appreciate the dreaminess and not to be just, you know, kind of, anyway, not to actually express the dream within the dream. And all of the different aspects of it that... that Tanya was talking about, I think is part of it. There's so much in this essay and in this notion or teaching, this reality of how do we expound, express, appreciate this dream that we're dreaming now.

[139:53]

This Zoom box, this Zoom window is a dream and we're all partaking of it and from our own place. And we have people here from England and from New York and from California and anyway, and from New Mexico and I'm looking around. So anyway, and we're all here in this dream and we're expressing this dream. And that's what Dogen is encouraging to actually take on the phenomenal world and express the Dharma. Through it, with it. Does that respond to your question, Chris? Motion. What about if hitting the monk is actually a way of saying and yet. So submerged in the dream and yet.

[140:58]

There's always more. There's always. There's always beyond the dream. Yes, good, good. So, yeah, Dogen talks, and I mentioned this in terms of the text, Dogen talks often about Buddha going beyond Buddha. It's not enough to just, you know, express the dream within a dream once and then you're finished. Expressing the dream within the dream, expressing reality within the phenomenal world, expressing the phenomenal world within ultimate reality, which is also a kind of Poirien context, is not, it's an ongoing process. So awakening or enlightenment is not like a one-time thing. Shakti Muni Buddha continued practicing an awakening every day after his great awakening in which he was declared the Buddha. And Dogen emphasizes that. Dogen talks about Buddha,

[141:59]

Buddha going beyond Buddha frequently, much more than he talks about Shikantaza or other teachings. So, yeah, so this is an ongoing process. And then how do you express the expression of the dream within the dream that's reemerging? So, yes, thank you, Nishim. And this was supposed to end at 3.30 central time, but we can keep going and it's not quite 3.30 yet. So anybody else? Comments, responses, questions? I'm really interested in hearing your own response, a reflection on this material. Hello? I don't see any hands at the moment.

[143:00]

Is there anything else in the chat? Nothing that hasn't been mentioned yet. Okay. Judith, hi. Thank you so much. I have a caveat before saying this, but... I have to confess that when you got to the section about the head above the head, I realized that my brain was fried. And I thought, well, I'm going to go back and I'm going to listen to the recording again. I'm going to read the books that you suggested. But having kept with it, so to speak, I just want to say that the idea of the Indra's net... helped me quite a lot. I think it was Inoshi that brought that up, and then your comments on it. This idea about my looking at putting my head above the universal Buddha's head, it was very, very strange to me.

[144:10]

But if I think about it in terms of what is superfluous, I mean, in a way, it seems like what Dogen is talking about is that there isn't a really isn't superfluity. There's not. And if I see it in that way, that means something to me. So that if we're just reflecting each other, that means that one thing is not superfluous. So that helped me. And then I just wanted to comment that I was so taken from the very beginning of your presentation wonderful presentation, and everybody was very helpful to me. I thank you all. But this idea of expressing, it seems to me to be a very, very important word because when we're expressing the dream, and also I like very much, Tyga, in your reference, you're introducing another word, empowering the dream.

[145:13]

You did that just a few towards the end here that's really helpful to me because that's like there's the dream and dreams and a certain degree visions I'm not sure I can distinguish between them really myself have been very important in a practical way in my life but this idea of expressing the dream means recognizing in a sense a simple thing as simple as there's not just me right There's not just me. It might matter if I. Sent out my postcards to get people to vote. Who knows? But there's not just me. So anyway, thank you all very much. And thank you, Judith. Yes, yes, yes, yes, yes. As you were talking, you know, the idea of Indra's net also is an image of inclusivity. Everything's included. So.

[146:14]

The ultimate liberation, the ultimate awakening is a matter of all the particulars. All of phenomena. Each one of us. And it doesn't exclude anyone, you know, doesn't exclude, you know, people we disagree with. People who have different views of reality. All of them are part of reality. So, yeah, it's. It's not about, you know, getting rid of certain people who, you know, whether they're immigrants or non-immigrants. It's about all beings and all awarenesses. So when he says expressing the dream or expounding the dream, or I added empowering the dream, I think that's right, is, you know, and the image of Indra's net, and thank you for bringing that up, Inoshi, the image of Indra's net is that each bit Each bit of phenomena, each particular dream is an expression and an integration of everything.

[147:23]

So this is all of this is an image of inclusivity, but not just passively. And that's the other part. So, you know, other translators translate setsu and muchu setsu was just talking about dreams or speaking of dreams. But I think it's important that. Setsu also means, and I think for Dogen, Setsu means expressing or expounding. Expressing it. It's not enough to just have some idea about awakening. It's how do you express it in your everyday activity. It's not about just, you know, and then something that maybe I didn't really say strongly, clearly enough, that in the tradition, for Dogen and for Kezon and for East Asian Buddhists generally, China and Japan and Korea, and going back to India, you know, that dreams were used as confirmation or verification of, yeah, I was going to say this at one point, and I don't think I got to it, that these dreams that Kezon had were, for him, verifications of his practice.

[148:35]

And Myohe, too. Myohe very much saw all these dreams as confirmation of his the progress to put it that way of his practice and the purification of his practice so you know I think in my life coincidences have served that purpose where you know amazing coincidences have happened that I realized confirmed something about you know the practice so these dreams and maybe dreams are not separate from that are ways of affirming that the practice is working, that the Dharma is here. So, yeah. Thank you, Judith, for all that. Dale, Dale McKenzie. You're muted, Dale. Here we go.

[149:36]

I just wanted to say that I'm really feeling good now because I'm confident that my delusion is part of the dream. And so I feel good that I can express that within this big dream. Yes, yes, there's, yeah, Token talks about the big dream that is happening for all of us. And yeah, no, there's... The word delusion reminds me of some things from the Genjo Koan. Dogen says, this is primal Dogen, that we should express awakening throughout awakening and we should express delusion throughout delusion. So part of the whole thing, another way of talking about this whole thing, about expressing the dream within the dream, the dream is not a delusion to get rid of.

[150:38]

Awakening, enlightenment, whatever you want to call it, is not about getting rid of delusion. It's about thoroughly being in delusion. So there's this wonderful quote in Genjo Koan where Dogen says that. To try and get it right. That. Deluded people have delusions about awakening. Awakened people are awakened. about their delusions or awaken to their delusions. So it's not about getting rid of delusion and trying to reach something called awakening. It's all interactive. And this is another way of saying expressing the dream within a dream. Expressing the delusions within delusion. Actually taking on all of the delusions that we each are. And awakening is that we acknowledge that and express that and share that and try and express caring and kindness and compassion and liberate ourselves from being caught by delusion or being caught by awakening.

[151:54]

It's possible to be caught by some experience of awakening or enlightenment and then ignore the need to express something about it in our lives. So thank you, Dale. So we're past time, but I'll stay as long as anybody wants to say anything. I have to sign off, but Teigen, thank you so much. It's so good to see you. You people don't know my relationship with Teigen, but I've known him for about 25 years. And he's a deep, deep Dharma brother to me. We've traveled to northern China together on a pilgrimage, and we have a deep past.

[152:55]

So my heart is full, and it's a pleasure to meet all of you folks. Thank you, Dale. Yeah, Dale is a member of Mountain Source Sangha, which I established in the Bay Area around 1994. And somehow it's still going, even after I left, after I escaped from California in 2007. And then there are a number of you from Ancient Dragon Zen Gate. So anyway, we all have our different contexts for being here. student of mine in the Institute of Buddhist Studies where I'm still teaching. Yes, Judith. Can I just ask Dale and get you to repeat the name of the Bay Area Sangha? Are you in the Bay Area? I live in Oakland, so my ears perked up here, but I couldn't actually hear what you said. Somebody could spell it or tell me how to reach you.

[153:59]

It's Mountain Source Sangha. S-O-U-R-C-E, not S-A-U-C-E. Mountain Source Sangha. And I think if you just Google it, you'll find there's a place in San Rafael. Is it San Rafael now? No, it's San Anselmo, but there's a website. You'll see it. I know where San Anselmo is. Thank you so much. I used to live in San Anselmo, yes. So welcome from the Bay Area. And just to say, in terms of... Interconnectedness. I don't know where all of you are now, but Mark is in New Mexico. Alan is still here, I guess, from England. There's other people from California. And David Ray is part of Ancient Dragons Zen Gate in Chicago, but he happens to be in Rome right now.

[155:01]

And I know she's in New York City. So anyway, this Zoom possibility is a way of interconnecting with various dreams. We all live in dreams. What? I'm coming from Oregon. Oh, good. Hi, welcome. Okay. Well, we're a little past time, which is okay with me, but I appreciate all of you being here. And please express your dreams. And please... Realize that that all of our all of our dreams, all of our delusions are part of the wholeness of awakening. Jeremy, are you also in England? Yes. Good. So, OK, does anyone have one last comment or question or whatever? And then Alan wrote, thank you, Tiger and everyone, for such a rich and fascinating session.

[156:05]

Okay. And if you go to Ancient Dragons Endgate, I'm doing various seminars. So you can find it on the Ancient Dragons Endgate website. I'm going to be doing a number of election retreat talks for people on the ground in Wisconsin going around knocking on doors the last two weeks in October. but you can you can also just come to those talks online so go to uh if you go to ancient dragons and get you can find the list of my seminars coming up i'm going to be doing talks on bodhisattva politics um so and then i had the one i mentioned about the painting of the rice cake november 23rd and then there's there's some from massachusetts and something from milwaukee too all online so you're all welcome so I hope to see some of you again. And please enjoy your dreams. Please enjoy your life. Please appreciate it. Please vote.

[157:10]

Thank you all. Thank you, Targen.

[157:15]

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