All right, Taigen, thank you so much for being with us again. This is the third class in a three-class series. So this is it. Just this is it for now. Okay, Taigen, over to you. Thank you. So tonight I'm going to talk about the five modes or the five degrees or the five processes or the five ranks are sometimes called so Yeah, so I want to start with YN Buddhism Which is very important as a background for soto Zen white YN the YN school was one of the one of the main schools of Chinese Buddhism and It wasn't so popular as a school, but it was very influential. And the five ranks derives from the... Huayen is the Chinese name for the Avatamsaka Sutra.

[01:06]

So Huayen is based on the Avatamsaka Sutra, which was translated by Thomas Cleary. A massive translation. And Huayen Buddhism is... Well, one of its main teachings was the fourfold dharma dhatu, or fourfold realms of reality, which I'm going to start with. But this is the basis for the Dongshan's five degrees. And the Hoi An Buddhism was a very important influence on all of East Asian Buddhism. So there was a recent academic scholars conference about Huayan Buddhism. And it had people from all the different schools of East Asian Buddhism.

[02:09]

And they ended up with the consensus that Huayan Buddhism was very important and influential to all of East Asian Buddhism. So, and Dongshan, who I've been talking about in my first two classes, he did the Jomar Samadhi, and I talked about his stories before that. Dongshan could be considered the sixth wayan ancestor. My teacher, Rev. Anderson, calls him that. And so, the fourfold dharmadhatu And if you have the text that I offered, you can screen share that, Nora. First, it begins with the realm of phenomenal events or particulars or Li in Chinese.

[03:13]

No, Shi in Chinese, excuse me. And then the second is the realm of principle, Li in Chinese, which corresponds with universality or ultimate reality. So the basic issue in the five degrees, the five modes, is this intersection between the ultimate or universal reality and our phenomenal particular reality. How do we integrate that? the particulars the ultimate or sense of the ultimate or the universal that we get from Sashin or from Zazen into expressing that in the particular phenomenal reality that we're in so the third of the four Dharmadhatus is the unobstructed interfusion of these first two the particulars and the universal so there are no particulars without the universal There's no universal without the particulars.

[04:15]

Uh, they are interfused and interpenetrating, uh, like form and emptiness are sort of analogous. Um, so there's no form outside of emptiness and there's no emptiness outside of forms. Uh, and then the fourth realm of the fourth old Dharmadatta was the, uh, of the mutual unimpeded non-obstruction of particulars with other particulars. So this is how we can see the particulars in the world interfusing with each other. So this is to say that all the events of our life are part of what is sitting on your chair right now, on your cushion right now. that everything we've ever experienced is part of who he is so um and everything so in time and in space um so those are the four dharma doctors and from them we derive the five degrees that dongshan came up with um so

[05:32]

the first of those degrees is the phenomena within the real, then the real within phenomena, then coming from within the real, moving within both, and then arriving within both, where both the phenomenal particulars and the ultimate universal reality are no different. So this is arriving within both. But there is one system where these are stages of accomplishment, but really these are just five positions, five ways of seeing things. The phenomena within the real, real within the phenomena, coming from within the real, the ultimate, moving within both ultimate and real, and then arriving together within both as the same.

[06:35]

So that's the five degrees, or five modes, or five ranks, or whatever you want to call them. So that's what we're going to talk about tonight, these five. And first I want to talk about our binary thinking and biological pentamerism. So it's very difficult for us not to think and see the world in terms of duality and dichotomies. This dualistic thinking stems, at least in part, from the biological fact that we have this bilateral and binary system of being. We have front and back, left and right, male and female. So we are binary creatures. And so we see in terms of subject and object and yeah.

[07:38]

And yet with what the Jewelmare Samadhi attempts to do in introducing the five degrees teaching is to present aspects of a five-fold pentamorous reality. Each as the five, such as the five-bladed herb, the five-bladed Vajra, which are mentioned in the Song of the Jilmer Samadhi. So there's a section of the Song of the Jilmer Samadhi, which we looked at last week, where it talks about the various fives, including Baba Wawa, as anything said or not. So there's going, coming, resting and walking and abiding and speech. But on our particular planet, we have had echinoderms with five-point radial symmetry rather than binary symmetry.

[08:39]

So in the Cambrian period, which is like 350 million to 500 million years ago or something like that, echinoderms were the dominant species on the planet. As that period came to an end with one of the mass extinctions, they survived, some of them. So they have five-point radial symmetry rather than binary symmetry. Modern examples are starfish, or sea urchins, or sand dollars, sea cucumbers, and the crinoids generally. So if we think about an intelligent species that has five-fold radial symmetry, and of course the starfish and... sea cucumbers and so forth are not, and they would not have survived on land.

[09:47]

Anyway, there's a limit to them. But we can see a five-point radial symmetry. And so to see in terms of fives... in terms of twos, is what this five degrees system does. And so the next I'm going to talk about the five verses of Dongshan. And, you know, these were not presented in the Soto tradition, Dongshan or later, as didactic verses. you know, a didactic system of accomplishment or stages or anything like that. They're rather presented in poetry. So it's a poetic expression. So Dongshan had five verses for the five-ball Dharma.

[10:53]

At the outset, the first verse is the phenomenal within the real. So that's the first of the five modes. At the outset of the dead of night before moonlight, do not be surprised to meet without recognizing a glorious, a glimmer faintly familiar from olden days. So this is his poetic expression of the phenomenal moment. this glimmer within the real. So I'm not going to, we can come back to these, but I'm just going to read them. The real within the phenomenal, an old woman waking late at dawn stands before an ancient mirror, clearly seeing her face, but nothing else genuine. Don't turn away from your visage, searching for reflections. So this is the second of the fivefold, the real within the phenomena.

[11:59]

And yeah, so it's an old woman looking in a mirror. The third, coming from within the real, emerging. So this is emerging from the ultimate. So like third day of or something, this feeling of emerging from the real. Amid nothingness, there's a path apart from the dusts. If you can simply avoid the current emperor's taboo name, you will surpass the eloquence of orators of past dynasties. So this emperor's taboo name was something in Chinese culture that was adopted by Soto people. as a way of talking about the taboo against saying too much so in the first in the first part of Dongshan talking about the when Dongshan was sold just this is it and the student asking Dongshan well did Yunya know it is or not and Dongshan saying if he

[13:22]

didn't know what it is, how could he be able to say it? If he did know what it is, how could he be willing to say it? So there's this sort of taboo about talking about, even though there's lots of talk in Sojo Zen, there's a taboo against saying the real saying um coming from within the real um because it's you know you have you have you have to have to experience it yourself so i can't i nobody can tell you how to be buddha the fourth one is moving within both two swords crossed in a duel that need not be avoided so this is the the um two sides, skillfully wielded like a lotus amid flames, naturally have vigor to ascend the heavens.

[14:24]

So these swords, skillfully wielded, naturally have vigor to ascend the heavens, and then arriving within both, where both are the same, neither falling into being nor non-being, who dares harmonize? People deeply wish to escape the stream of the ordinary and yet, after all, return to sit in the warm coals and ashes. So that's the five verses of Dongshan about these five degrees. And, you know, he didn't talk about them except for these verses and in the Jilmer Samadhi referring to the five. There is another system where there is five degrees of accomplishment. So, Dongshan, after the first five verses gives five further verses.

[15:25]

What we'll first is looking upon the sage kings from the outset took as their model Emperor Yao, who was a great ancient Chinese emperor and governed the people with ceremony. Their dragon waists bent respectfully, passing through the crowded markets and streets. Benevolent rule was celebrated and culture flourished. So this is looking upon. This is the first stage in the sense of degrees of accomplishment. The second is serving. For whom do you bathe and apply makeup and adornments? The cuckoo's call urges all wanderers home. Countless flowers have all fallen, yet the cry continues among jagged peaks in deep wooded thickets. So this is the second stage.

[16:30]

The third stage is accomplishing. So this system of stages is sort of secondary for Dzogchen. It's basically talking about five aspects, five modes, five degrees of a circle. And they're not like sequential. They're all kind of simultaneous. But in this set of five... stages of accomplishment there's sort of a sense of excuse me of some accomplishment so again it's all poetic the third one flowers blossom on a withered tree in a spring beyond the Alpas riding backward on a jade elephant chasing the qilin. That's a kirin in Japanese.

[17:33]

It's got a head of a dragon and a body of a deer and a tail of an ox. It's a kind of magical animal. Riding backwards on the jade elephant chasing the qilin. Now hidden beyond the myriad... Lofty peaks. The moon is clear and breeze pure at the approach of sunrise. So this is parallel to the third stage of coming from within the real. The fourth in these stages of accomplishment is accomplishing mutually. And Dongshan's poetic expression, ordinary beings and Buddhas do not inhibit each other. Mountains are naturally high, waters naturally deep. What the myriad distinctions and numerous differences show is that where the partridges call out, hundreds of flowers bloom afresh.

[18:33]

So in spring, the partridges call out and hundreds of flowers bloom freshly. So in the previous one, it talks about flowers blooming on a withered tree. and spring beyond the kalpas. So there's a spring image, and there's spring happening now. Accomplishment of accomplishment is the fifth of these stages of accomplishment. The head sprouting horns is no longer bearable. The mind desiring Buddhahood is a cause for shame. In the endless empty kalpa, nobody has ever known Why to Journey South and Seek the 53 Bodhisattva Guides that Sudhana sees in the last chapter of the Bhagavad Gita and Sutra. So we're currently doing, for several years, doing a reading once a month, first Friday evening of the month, An Ancient Dragon and

[19:42]

but finally in the last chapter where the Pilgrim Sudhana is impelled on his journey by Manjushri and Maitreya and Samantabhadra and finally comes to the palace of Maitreya, which is endlessly vast and includes within it these other palaces that are also endlessly vast. And all of them are intertwined. So there's a samadhi in the Flower of the Mansudra, samadhi of samantabhadra, where on every grass tip, in every atom, there are a myriad Buddhas with bodhisattvas around them. And in each of these, there are samantabhadra bodhisattvas. And at some point, the Buddha says to Samantabhadra, very good. We've been, uh, expressing the Buddha way very well.

[20:44]

And the Buddha reaches out and pats Samantabhadra on the head. And at the same time, all the Buddhas in all the worlds at Samantabhadra on the head, and they all pat each of the Samantabhadras on the head. So it's this very, um, uh, wild kind of scene. Um, Anyway, so basically, Dongshan presents these five modes, or five degrees, or five ranks, if you will, poetically, not in terms of subsystem. And this was taken up by one of Dongshan's disciples, Shaoshan. And at various points in Chinese, Saodong, Saodong is the way of saying sojo in Chinese, the Saodong lineage that Dongshan founded.

[21:48]

There were monks and scholars who worked with the five degrees and presented them in various ways. And Saoshan was one of the disciples of Dongshan. And he worked with the five degrees in this way, also presenting poems. But he also played with them and played with the five. Again, the five are the phenomenal within the real, the real within the phenomenal, coming from within the real, moving within both, and arriving together within both, where both the ultimate and the phenomenal or particular are no different.

[22:53]

It's just all the same. But the point is that these five are different, are just different... degrees in the circle of Zen, of Chan. So Dogen later critiqued these five degrees, didn't use them, talked about how if you see Dongshan's five degrees as the meaning of Soto Zen that you're missing the point. So he praised Dongshan, but he didn't like the five degrees because it's too easy to make it into some system. Of course, the way I'm presenting it with these poetic verses, the way Dongshan presented it, it's not so easy to make it into a system.

[24:00]

But later on, Linji people and Hakuin later in Japan did use the system of stages of accomplishment. So the five ranks are also part of Linji or Rinzai Zen. And they're used very differently, though. So... I'm tempted to pause and see if there's any questions at this point, either in the room or online. So this is material that probably you have not been exposed to before. I'm enjoying it very much. It just will take me a while to digest. Sure, yes. And digesting it is partly the point.

[25:03]

And there's no end to digesting it. So I'm presenting these as... Because it's important in Soto Zen. These are, in some ways, the five modes of Soto Zen. It's the background philosophy of all of Soto Zen. And yet, it's presented as poetry. So, you can make copies. Maybe if you could post in the chat, Nora, the document that I'm using for people so that people can see it and use it afterwards, after we talk about it. Any other? Yes. I think there might be one question in here, in the room.

[26:07]

Lily. So this text says, One, first time I'm interacting with it, so obviously I'm not going to be able to grasp it quite immediately, but it's all quite far out. So I, just in terms of like degrees, stages, is this like a sequence of some sort of like you meet... a phenomenon within the real and then you move on to real within the phenomenon? Or is it just they're different points and they're all different arms of the starfish? Or is it you have to meet the first two arms of the starfish to move to the third arm of the starfish? Like, is it a sequence or are the individual aspects that are all of equal weight? Yes. Honestly. So, yes, they are five degrees or five modes. They're all simultaneous. But yet, there is a way of looking at it that Hakuin and Rinzai Zen particularly focus on, which is...

[27:15]

to see it as stages of accomplishment. And Dongshan, you know, has a second set of verses in which he kind of talks about that. So yes, both. Thank you. But primarily, for Soto Zen, it's just five modes of being, five degrees, five aspects of reality. Could you say anything more about why Dogen rejected this? You said that it was because of it being kind of akin to systems, a little bit too systematic? Yeah, well, it was possible in terms of all of the... There are many, many, many Sao Dong and then later Soto teachers who... used this as a system and, or, or tried to talk about it in a systematic way.

[28:21]

So, uh, Dogen rejected that. Although Dogen uses the five himself, and I'm going to get to that, but, um, he, uh, yeah, he's, he, um, says that it becomes too much of a system and so he doesn't like it. But it's the undercurrent of Dogen's teaching himself. So anyway, yeah. Other comments or questions at this point? Excuse me, I have a little bit of a cough. Well, in China, as we proceed, there was various different teachers.

[29:26]

Not everybody, but some of the Zou Dong people in China talked about the five principles. ranks, or the five degrees. Hongzhe, who I wrote about in a book called Cultivating the Empty Field, has a set of verses on the five modes. So I'm going to do those next. So first is the partial within the true. So Hongzhe says, the blue sky clears and the river of stars' cool flood dries up. River of stars is the Milky Way. It's a way of saying that in Chinese. At midnight, the wooden boy pounds on the boat's door. In darkness, the jade woman is startled from her sleep. So this is the wooden man and the stone woman in the Song of the Julemer Samadhi, but this is a prequel to that.

[30:28]

At midnight, the wooden boy pounds on the moon's door. In darkness, the jade woman is startled from her sleep. So these images, like the wooden man begins to sing, the stone woman gets up to dance. These images are repeated in various Soto texts and become part of the Soto lore. The second one is the true within the partial. ocean and clouds rendezvous at the top of the spirit mountain the old woman returns air hanging down like white silk and shyly faces the mirror coldly reflecting her image so this is uh the true within the partial this is the second of the five modes um Third, coming from within the troop.

[31:31]

This is emerging from immersion in the ultimate. In moonlit night, the huge sea monster sheds its scales. Its great back rubs the heavens, and it scatters clouds with its wing feathers, soaring here and there along the bird's path. Difficult to classify. So this is, again, uh, Hongzhi is using images from Dongshan, uh, but, uh, you know, the Dongshan used in this, in the stages of accomplishment and the image of, uh, the Qilin, um, um, uh, riding backwards on the, on a jade elephant chasing the Qilin. Here, Hongzhi goes further and, uh, This talks about this huge sea monster shedding its scales and says that its great back rubs the heavens and it scatters clouds with its wing feathers.

[32:43]

soaring here and there along the bird's path, difficult to classify. The bird's path, uh, is something that Dongshan talked about. Uh, it's the path of the birds, uh, and we can't see it. So, uh, birds know, you know, birds migrate, um, some of them, you know, thousands of miles, um, from north to south and so forth. And, um, We can't see the path of the birds. So the bird's path is this image of the path that is difficult to classify, that is, there's no signs of it. There's no traces of it, like the traces of a jet flying over. It's so soaring here and there along the bird's path, difficult to classify. Coming from within both together, which is the fourth, Meeting face to face, we need not shun each other's names.

[33:48]

So in the fourth one of Dongshan, he talks about... It's the fourth of the first set of... Actually, it's the third in the first set of verses of Dongshan, if you can simply avoid the current emperor's taboo name. Here, Dongshan says, meeting face to face, we need not shun each other's name. We can know each other's nerves, in other words. In the changing wind, no injury to the profound meaning.

[34:49]

In the light, a road to the natural differences. So in the Sandokai, Harmony of Difference and Sameness, it talks about light and dark, and dark is where you see the ultimate because there's no distinctions. We're not distracted by all the distinctions between this and that and so forth. But in the light, a road to the natural differences. So this is coming from within both together. In the changing wind, no injury to the profound meaning. And yet in the light, a road to the natural differences. And then Homscher's last one, arriving within both together. The Big Dipper slants across the sky before dawn. In dewy cold, the crane begins to waken from its dreams. As it flies out of the old nest, the pine tree up in the clouds topples.

[35:50]

So this is when they're both together, when the ultimate and the particular are totally the same. So the Big Dipper slants across the sky before dawn. In dewy cold, the rain begins to waken from its dreams. As it flies out of the old nest, the pine tree up in the clouds topples. So there are dramatic images from Hongzhi for these five. And again, these are five in terms of verses. They're not didactic. They're not... presenting some set of five instructions or anything like that. It's poetic. So I want to get to Dogen, but any comments on Hongshin's verses?

[36:55]

I have a question about the evoking sea monsters and magical creatures. Right. Is there a distinction between objects in the world and more imaginative things from history or even historical figures like Emperor Yao? It's all one. So these so-called magical creatures are... part of the reality of people in the world. I mean, that's one way to answer it anyway. They're not seen as paranormal or something like that. These are just part of the reality of our being in the world, is seeing these creatures. And of course, they're fantastical for And they're beyond our everyday activity, and yet they're part of our everyday activity for Chinese people back in Dongshan's time and for Japanese people later on, Dogen's time and so forth.

[38:18]

So Dogen critiqued these five. He said, well, he just said that if you try and get to the ultimate liberation from these five degrees, you can't do it. So, you know, these are poetic expressions of something. But Dogen criticized them, and yet he kind of used them in a sneaky way. So Dogen's Genjo Koan, the opening statement is described by Thomas Cleary as in terms of the five degrees. And it's not necessary to do that. You can talk about the five without referencing the five degrees, and yet Excuse me.

[39:30]

There's a way in which you can see these five, this five-fold reality. So, you know, the Dongshan's five modes are just five modes of reality. They're just five ways to see the world. And it gets complicated. There's I Ching versions of this. There were very, very many abscuse ways of working with the five degrees. And we don't really talk about them so much anymore. But they're part of Soto Zen. And they're core to Soto Zen. And they link Soto Zen to Hua Yan, which is Very important. So, in the beginning of Genjo Koan, again, other commentators and interpreters of Genjo Koan don't see the need to put this in terms of thought, and yet,

[40:46]

Thomas Cleary did that. So here goes. One, as all things are Buddha Dharma, there is no delusion and realization, practice and birth and death, and there are Buddhas and sentient beings. So this is the first of the five degrees where each thing is, where all the particulars are. And then the second one, as the myriad beings are without an abiding self, there's no delusion, no realization, no Buddhas, no sentient beings, no broken dead. So this is kind of the ultimate. Just emptiness, nothing. So then fourth, thus there are birth and death, delusion and realization, sentient beings and Buddhas.

[41:54]

So this also is reminiscent of the old saying, mountains are mountains, then mountains are not mountains, then mountains are again mountains. Thus there are birth and death, delusion and realization, and emptiness, and sentient beings and buddhas. So that's the fourth. And then the fifth is Durkan saying at the end of all of that, yet in attachment blossoms fall and in evasion weeds spread. So this is the fifth. This is... The reality of the particular and the universal. Of form and emptiness. In attachments blossoms fall and aversion needs spread. So that's a way of reading the beginning of Genjo Koan.

[42:56]

That is based on the five degrees. And that's, you know, Dogen... I don't know if Dogen thought about the five degrees when he was writing that, but probably not. But this five-ness is part of reality, as it is in the Song of the Jewel Mara Samadhi. So you have this five. There's another place where Dogen talked about this, about these five, This is from 1248, number 266 out of the total 531 Dharma Hall discourses in Dogen's extensive record. It might be seen as a subtle expression of the five degrees. So this is one of the Dharma Hall discourses when I was translating it.

[44:01]

I was just really blown away by it because it's Kind of like Dogen saying how he sees his own teaching and what he expects from it for his students. So sometimes I, Ehe Dogen, enter the ultimate state and offer profound discussions simply wishing for you all to be steadily upright in your mind field. So this is Dogen's first stage, the stage of particulars. And he offers profound discussion. And at the beginning it says, sometimes I, and the sometimes is actually Uji, Being time. So in being time, I will again enter the ultimate space and offer profound discussion, simply wishing you all to be steadily intimate in your mind here.

[45:22]

So this is maybe the ultimate rather than the particular. then sometimes within the gates and gardens of the monastery, I offer my own style of practical instruction, simply wishing you all to support and play freely in spiritual penetration. So this is Uji being time within the gates and gardens of the monastery. So Dogen wrote Dogen's Pure Standards for the Zen Community, which I also translated with Shohaku Okamura, Ehe Shingi. And it includes Tenzo Kyokun, the teaching for the Tenzo. And for all the different people who are involved in... the different temple administrators who are involved in this.

[46:30]

But I love it that he says, simply wishing you all to disport and play freely with spiritual penetration. So he's presenting his teachings and what he wants from them. And third, sometimes I spring quickly, leaving no trace. Yeah! Yeah! Simply wishing you all to drop off body and mind. So this is the third. Simply wishing you all to drop off body and mind. I enter the samadhi of self-fulfillment. So the samadhi of self-fulfillment is... It's part of Bendo Wang. I don't know if you chatted. We chatted about it. Oh, good. You chatted that. Great. Yeah, I love that text. And it's very Huayen. The samadhi of self-fulfillment is self-accepting its function.

[47:36]

So the characters accepting function together mean realization or enjoyment, realization, self or fulfillment or enjoyment. So entering this samadhi of self-fulfillment, he simply wishes all of his students to realize to trust what your hands can hold. So this is the third. And then the fourth is, suppose someone suddenly came forth and asked this mountain monk, they'll give him a show. Oh, no, wait a second. I'm sorry. I messed up the third and fourth. The third is sometimes I spring quickly, leaving no trace, simply wishing you all to drop off body and mind.

[48:41]

The fourth is sometimes I enter the body in self-fulfillment, simply wishing you all to trust what your hands can hold, to take care of what you actually have in your hands, what you can take care of. So that's the thought. Sometimes I enter the samadhi of self-fulfillment simply wishing you all to trust what your hands can hold. So this is kind of having both, being involved with both the ultimate and the provisional, or the particular. But then, after those four, he says, suppose someone suddenly came forth and asked this mountain monk, what would go beyond these kinds of teaching, these four kinds of teaching? And Dogen pauses and then says, I would simply say to him, scrub clean by the dawn wind, the night mist pierced.

[49:54]

dimly seeing the blue mountains form a single line. So up in Aegean, you know, he was up in the mountains, and I guess he could see in the distance a single line of mountains. It's not a single line, it's each mountain, but it's also a single line. Scrub clean by the dawn wind. The night mist clears. Then we've seen the Blue Mountains form a single line. So that single line is the fifth rank, the fifth degree, the fifth mode or aspect. So those are two examples of Dogen putting things in terms of lives. And whether he was conscious of the five degrees or not doesn't really matter.

[50:56]

Uh, but it's, it's, um, like in the Jalmer Samadhi, there are these fives in reality and, and Dogen honors them. Um, in Genji Koan, in the beginning of Genji Koan, in this entry from Dogen's extensive record, and I think in other places too. So, um, these are the five modes, the five degrees, the five ranks, are central to Soto Zen, to Soto Zen philosophy. And, um, You know, now you can forget them. But, you know, to be exposed to the mode in which the ultimate and the particular integrate, how do we see...

[52:02]

in our everyday activity, the ultimate or the universal, or vice versa. How do we see the particular, the phenomenal, in the ultimate? So it works both ways. And yeah, so comments, questions, responses. in the room or online. I would just like to share that it's so wonderful to see Hongshui here. And you did reference your book, Configuring the Empty Field. I just want to... I mean, I've known you for a while, maybe I've told you this, but I referenced this book here and there because it was so meaningful to me when I first arrived at Tassamara to do monastic training my first summer there.

[53:12]

I did two practice periods first and then went into the summer, which is the guest season, which was very exciting. very challenging for me. I felt exposed in some way, you know, that it was difficult. Right. Because I'm a massive train creator, and as I know a lot, there are guests there who you're caring for. And then all of a sudden, we're interacting with guests, and it's a different kind of feeling. environment. You feel looked at. I often felt that it was kind of like a zen zoo. Especially when I was the head of the dining room, when the guests felt free to just make comments about you. Like I remember walking by and I heard someone say, the students here are so skinny. So I remember so vividly talking. I was living in lower born warm and reading Cultivating the Empty Field and There was just the language of it.

[54:14]

It reminds me, actually, of how Dogen is speaking in this last talk. that you just shared with us, number 2626, this language that's just so poetic and it like creates this space where you can enter in, it's so poetic, and at the same time there's an emotional quality to it, at least for me, where I feel peace, I feel, you know, I feel rest. And it's, yeah, so, and with, I have to say that with You know, I always knew it as the five ranks. I never studied it at Tassajara. But this five modes or the five degrees, it's not as penetrable for me. I'm not able to, you know, just let it know if anybody else is mystified too. I'm with you.

[55:15]

I'm not really finding an entrance. And so I appreciate what you just said about, you know, now you can forget it all. Sure. But I just, you know, you've done so many translations and commentaries. Would you say just personally a little bit more about your connection with this teaching of Master Dongshan, what this means to you? Sure. Yes, well... These five modes are, well, forgetting about the five modes, it's just Dongshan himself in terms of all the stories. And I just, you know, I just highlighted three stories in the beginning and the first of the three. So in my book... Another plug for the book, Just This Is It, Dongshan and the Practice of Suchness.

[56:17]

I talk about many stories that Dongshan was involved with, many koans there in the Book of Shreddery and other places. And I just have this feeling about him, like Dogen, I mean, you know, they're both great masters, and Hongzhi too, in the tradition. And so, you know, you don't need to master the five degrees or understand the five degrees or whatever, but just to know that there is this teaching, that there is this way of seeing the ultimate in the particular, the particular in the ultimate, the ultimate and the particular, the coming from within the ultimate, the ultimate and the particular interaction, and then the ultimate and the particular as the same, as one thing.

[57:25]

These are ways of seeing Dongshan. But there's so much more to Dongshan than just these five degrees. The Five Degrees or Five Modes or whatever, Five Ranks, is kind of neat, sort of advanced teaching about how the ultimate and the particular interact. But Dongshan was very poetic. And his stories are poetic. And it's not one thing. It's not something that you can get a hold of and say, oh, this is it. Even though just this is it. So anyway, I don't know. I like Dongshan a lot.

[58:28]

I like Dogen a lot. I like Hongzhou a lot. You know, did I do a, I think I did a series of talks here about Hongzhu before? Maybe not. Anyway. Did you do a what? Did I do a series of talks here about Hongzhu? No. Maybe not. You've done Song in a Grassroom. Yeah, you did. Oh, whoa. Yeah, that's great. Yeah, and there's so much to Homeship, too. So I'm glad that that book was helpful. Yeah, and I'm sorry, if anybody has a question or comment, just please jump in. Scanning in the room here. So to also just say that there is... There's something, you know, in looking at Dogen in this context, the very last things he says, at least in both of these examples he gives us, you know, the fifth one of the opening of the Genjo core, and then this last one here in this talk, there's a quality that we don't always necessarily, or I don't always necessarily associate with Dogen, which is relaxation.

[59:55]

Oh, yeah. And, you know, seeing all the imagery, I guess it would be Taoist imagery that we're seeing in Dongshan and Dongshan's. writings here, but there is this quality of no matter how much we practice, how much we study, how much we learn, how much knowledge we get, whether we do penetrate these teachings, whatever that means, that no matter what, still an attachment blossoms, like blossoms are going to fall. You know, there's a, there's a, there's a, as he says, what does he say? I wish for you. It's almost like he's almost say, I wish for you to just relax and kind of don't worry about it, which is very, very interesting to hear that and to experience that for myself coming from Dogen. Well, you know, Dogen says that and also, but he says repeatedly, please consider this closely.

[61:00]

Please investigate this. Please study this. So he's saying, yes, relax. Let go of hundreds of years and relax completely. But also, yeah, dig into it. What's going on? How do you see it? But in a relaxed way. It's not about... It's not like you have to get something. It's there already. You have to uncover something. So it's, yeah. Thank you for your time. Anybody in the room here have anything they'd like to say? Yeah, she said, I know, I know. Oh, sorry, I'm sorry. I have a question going back. I think during the first class, you said, maybe this is a tangent, but you said that Dogen didn't particularly like the term SoCo.

[62:07]

Did I misremember that or did you? Is that right? That's right. I'm just like, in all the secession now, like the Five Rings and all these examples, I'm just curious, like looking back at the Ancestors set, inside that, the name name, that's a fun story. And you're still not throwing me out? No. Okay. Well, Dogen said that he didn't like the word Soto. He didn't even like the word Zen. He said, this is just Buddhism. This is just the Buddha way, not Buddhism. It's just, you know, Buddha's here. So we don't need to, you know, and now we have all these different schools and so forth. But, yeah, it's just all the Buddha way. is what dogen says so yeah i just i just have a comment that i'm always intrigued by the language that um these uh ancestors use and you're using and everybody uses it it kind of reminds me of um

[63:28]

I don't know, reading Faulkner or James Joyce or trying to crack the Navajo code or learn a foreign language which there is no translation. It's really difficult, and deliberately so, I think. Yeah. it's written poetically and spoken poetically and it doesn't readily translate, but there is, you, you get the sense there is something there beyond, beyond the veil. And, um, I'm just appreciating that commenting. Yeah. It's, um, Oh, excuse me. Dogan and Dongshan is the kind of language that, um, it takes a while. And so studying Dogen, you know, the more you read of Dogen, the more the stories intersect and you start to get familiar with phrases and so forth.

[64:31]

But it's his own language. And particularly in Shobogenzo, he plays with the language a lot. So, yeah, it is like learning a foreign language. Nora? Yeah. So I think, I mean, one, I was just feeling a lot of gratitude for you just coming here and, like, going very methodically through, like, all of this, like, very dense and kind of, like, difficult journey. but not difficult kind of stuff. So I was like, wow, I'm so glad that someone was here to walk us through that. And then just thinking about like the poetry of all of it, you know, like you have to have a sense of your own poetic kind of nature in order to get into this kind of translation. And I don't know how much of, like, technical, like, grammatical stuff played a role in these translations.

[65:38]

And then also, like... you know like um the forms and and words and imagery that come from like english language kind of poetry how much that you know could aid in a translation i'm not sure i was thinking about like t.s elliott has a poem where he describes the fog is like creeping through the city in the streets and like rubbing its back against the window panes and i was like oh another yeah yeah yeah interesting creature right That's great. Yeah, go ahead. Oh, no, I think that's like pretty much sums up most of that. And then I'm really thinking about the second part. you know, like the five sort of pronged one, like the second one through all the different versions, through all like Dongshan and Dogen and Thomas Cleary and things like that. I was thinking about that one, but I might have to think about that one more before I can say anything cohesive about it.

[66:44]

Yeah, no, I think that's good. So what I wanted to do was just present you with this material. And you have it in the chat now and you can look at it and play with it. And that's really necessary to play with it. So to look at the second, for example, as you just said, in the different vibes, you know, would be interesting. And it's not that you are going to come to some conclusion. or that you will understand or explain it, they're a lie. That's the point. It's a lie. The five degrees are a lie. And we could play with it now just as, excuse me, Sao Shan and Kassan Joseki in Japan, and all these people plagued with these

[67:46]

and Hongzhi so but about translation there's a story when I translated Cultivating the Empty Field the writings of Hongzhi I was working with my Chinese teacher. It was actually based on my master's degree at CIIS, California Institute of Medical Studies. And I had finished going through all of the, you know, cultivating the empty field and all of the material in there. And I gave it to my advisor to look at. And there was a Tibetan scholar named Mark Charles, a very good Tibetan scholar. And I went back after a week after even looking at it.

[68:47]

And he said, this is no good. Start over. which was great because, you know, what he said, I had translated the words but not the meaning. So I had to go back and with all, if any of you know Cultivating the Empty Field, there's like little paragraphs that are sections, the main part that, and I had to like sit with each of them and say, well, what is the Dharma here? And that's where that translation comes from. So maybe one more comment or question. Let me ask a question. You know, these are difficult.

[69:52]

I'm sure a doctor would be thinking about them, but the one that came quickly was the woman looking in the mirror, an older woman. It's like, my mother just passed away and they went through her own life, you know, pretty things. And thinking, you know, that there's something universal there in looking in the mirror. But it seems strange that there would be these two different images of women looking in the mirror within the context of these teachings. I would assume in an elastic setting that's, you know, away from, like, I don't know if that ever struck you or the comment in that. Oh, yeah. Yes, yes. So... Oh, my. Yeah. There's... Well, you know, I'm getting older, too, and so I can look in the mirror and see myself at age 16 or 12 or 8 or 25 or, you know, various...

[71:04]

various ages, various times, or 35, or whatever. Anyway, so yeah, it's, there's something there that, what did she say? I want to find it, yeah. One second, I'm so sorry. She's looking at an ancient mirror. Yeah. An old woman waking late at dawn stands before an ancient mirror, clearly seeing her face, but nothing else genuine. Don't turn away from your vision, reaching for reflections. Yeah, that's the second one. So, yeah, that's very poignant. And, um, And yet, that's real.

[72:13]

It's something that we can look at and see, oh yeah, there's an old woman looking in the mirror, an ancient mirror. and uh so she so the ancient mirror shows uh both phenomenal and and real um the ancient mirror shows the whole thing and she's in her um She clearly sees her face. There's another one where there's an old woman looking in the mirror. Oh, sure. Yeah. The second one, I'm sure. Yeah, thank you. Yeah. Yeah. Ocean and clouds run a view at the top of the Spirit Mountain. The old woman returns, her hair hanging down like white silk. And your shyly faces the mirror, coldly reflecting her image.

[73:20]

Yeah. I don't know what to say about it, but yes, it's powerful. You just have thunder here in Chicago. There's a tornado one. Oh! I was on a peer group call with So-San in Minnesota at about 4 o'clock, and she had the same thing. All the sirens started going off. It seems to be... Well, it was just thunder. Yeah. Anyway. Here we have nothing but... Can you hear the night sounds here? Oh, yeah. You crickets can do that. That's what those have been the whole class. All beings are singing, singing in praise of Dongshan. And in gratitude to you, Taigen, thank you so much. You're welcome so much. Yep. Hoping that, um, you may be free sometime, you know, in coming times to, uh,

[74:23]

to do a little silent illumination with us, with Feng Shui, maybe in the future. Yeah, that would be awesome. Yes, we'll do it. Let's do it. Just ready to go. Okay, so to close, as we've been doing, we'll stand as you're able, take refuge together.

[74:52]

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